Newb ? - Lighting SW Star Destroyer

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:23 pm

Hi all, first post here. I'm not new to modeling, but I would still consider myself a rank amateur.

Anyway, I want to do my first model lighting. I got an incomplete AMT Fiber Optic Star Destroyer on the cheap, but it's missing the LEDs. I found something to kind of go by here: http://www.starwarsmodels.com/stardf.html, so I wanted to add more optic strands.

Then I came across this place and found Scratchy's scratch Destroyer, and my jaw hit the floor!!!

Anyway, I have no illusions of even approaching even a hundredth (thousandth?) of that detail, but I would like to get my little kit together.

To my question: I know squat about electronics, so I'm using this site's LED info and also http://www.theledlight.com/ledcircuits.html. So what size/strength LEDs do I want for the fiber optics and for the thrusters? And would I want blue for the thrusters, or just white? (any reference photo links on color would be much appreciated)
Also, does anyone know of a good site for how-to info on soldering together all the parts on a board. I would kind of like to do it mostly right the first time.

Here's the C battery electronics it came with:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2839/dscf0015uda.jpg
There is nothing included for that plug to go into. I was thinking of just getting an AA battery holder instead and putting it inside the model, attaching the rear magnetically, as the guy did in the starwarsmodels.com link above. My main concern with that, though, is having to handle that model part repeatedly to turn it on/off. Thoughts?

moderator edited to remove inline images

photoguy · Post by **photoguy** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:39 pm

Welcime Aboard!

1. Change your avatar size. da' Rules say you can only have an 80x80 max.

2. When that kit was released, it included several "grain of wheat" light bulbs, not LEDs.

If you stick with some basic lighting, and don't worry about flashing circuits, etc. you can do quite a bit with a hand full of white LED's wired up to some 1000ohm resistors, and run in parallel to a 3V power supply or 2AA batteries.

Get the flat topped LED's if you can, some extra fiber optic cable, and some heat shrink tubing. You'll also need a soldering iron, but I assume you already knew that.

You can light several strands of fiber optic with a single LED, and secure the individual strands into the hull of your model with white glue. Leave about a eighth of an inch sticking through the hole, and trim it off flush after everything is painted up.

Good Luck, and keep us posted!

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:06 pm

Great, photoguy, thanks for the info! So what voltage do you recommended for the LEDs? (does higher voltage=more brightness?)

And what's the heat shrink tubing for?

USS Atlantis · Post by **USS Atlantis** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:55 am

radiofrog wrote:Great, photoguy, thanks for the info! So what voltage do you recommended for the LEDs? (does higher voltage=more brightness?)

And what's the heat shrink tubing for?

White LED's run on 3v - that's the max, anything over that and you WILL burn out the LED

Find LED's that have decent light output - not all LED's are the same - Radio Shack ones are around 15-20mcd (mcd is the measure of light output), where as the Flat Tops I get from Unique run 1520 mcd - yes 100 times brighter

The Heat Shrink Tube is how you connect the Fiber Strands to the LED -

How I connect them together is this

Bundle up the strands, insert them in a length of HS Tube, shrink the tube around the strand ends

Cut off a short length of the bundled strands/tube to get a flat/flush end

Insert a LED into a second short length of HS Tube, slide the other end of that tube over the FO Strands/Tube till the end of the LED butts up against the cut end of the FO Strands

Shrink the tube over everything, insuring that the LED is held firmly by the HS Tube

NOTE If you're using Plastic Fiber Optic Strands, keep the heat as low as possible when shrinking the HS Tube, else you'll start curling and doing other not-nice things to the FO Strands that will render them next to useless for the purpose of lighting the ship

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:58 am

Thanks USS Atlantis! Good info... nice LED link also. Know of a good place to get more FO cable too?

USS Atlantis · Post by **USS Atlantis** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:11 am

radiofrog wrote:Thanks USS Atlantis! Good info... nice LED link also. Know of a good place to get more FO cable too?

Fiber Optics StoreIs where I get my FO strands - you can purchase by the foot, Project Spools or Full Spools

Madman Lighting · Post by **Madman Lighting** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:51 pm

You can also use this kit to drive all your LEDs and give you some of the fiber you need.

I'm working on one of those Star Destroyers too: Madmans Gallery

Anybody got some good painting tips for this beast? I've started painting it and I'm pre-shading all the recesses and lines. Now I'm base coating with a light sea gray and it seems to be comming along OK.

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:49 pm

Thanks, Madman, but I think I'm going to set it up custom so it's just what I need. Before I place my orders for all the stuff I'm getting, does this look like a proper set-up for the LEDs?
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6918/picture1hhe.jpg

And I'm seeing various sizes of HS tubing. How much does it shrink? Would I be looking for half-inch, quarter-inch, or smaller?

USS Atlantis · Post by **USS Atlantis** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:52 am

That' looks alright to me

- you're running in parallel, so the failure of one (still a slight possibility) doesn't take out the whole string

- my resistor calcs say that the 150 ohm is correct

Go for it, and post links to pictures so we can see what's going on

Madman Lighting · Post by **Madman Lighting** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:00 pm

I double checked the calcs, you'll be putting 16.7mA per LED, assuming they're all the same type. This is just fine because it gives you a 15% margin between setpoint and abs max rating.

Looks good, have fun going for it and let us know how it goes.

-John C.

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:18 pm

Well, not surprisingly, about halfway through I've broken the drill bit that came with the kit. I'm using .265 mm FO; any idea what bit size I need? And a good online source, maybe?

USS Atlantis · Post by **USS Atlantis** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:31 pm

radiofrog wrote:Well, not surprisingly, about halfway through I've broken the drill bit that came with the kit. I'm using .265 mm FO; any idea what bit size I need? And a good online source, maybe?

.265mm?

That's a #86 bit - and it'd have to be online as I don't think any stores carry bits that small

Let me check some of my places

Edit:

Only place I found bits that small was McMaster Carr - but I don't know if you'll like the price

.26mm HSS Qty: 1-11 Price: 5.07 each Qty 12+ Price 3.37ea
.26mm Cobolt Qty: 1-11 Price: 8.64 each Qty 12+ Price 6.91ea

http://www.mcmaster.com/#micro-size-drill-bits/=2tx2gv

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:35 pm

Widget has #80s, you always need a little bit of slop when running FO.

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:48 pm

Thanks for the help and info, guys! Using the bit # I also found a five-pack of resharpened bits at Drill City and some more at Nana's, but it looks like Widget has the best price (10 for $2.29!)

And with a little more research I found someone using a #81 bit for the exact same purpose.

Now I have to wait for the bits

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:13 am

So I've started drilling w/ intent to put in optics, then paint, but I'm wondering about the logistics of that. I don't want to paint, then drill, as I risk mucking up the paint job and add some clean-up. So, any tips on spraying around the optics? Should I prime before drilling?

USS Atlantis · Post by **USS Atlantis** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:22 am

When you glue the fiber strands in the holes, leave about 1/2" or so sticking out

Paint as normal -then after your final color coat, before the decals, trim the strands flush with the surface

Gloss coat (Future or Pledge with Future as it's called now), decal, gloss coat

Then if you want a dull or satin finish, NOW is the time to apply it

DLMatthys · Post by **DLMatthys** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:22 am

The AMT Star Wars Destroyer and the Star Trek DS9 kits are the ideal subjects that suit the AMT/ERTL FO kit. The same FO kit when it was issued for the Galaxy Class Enterprise "D"...not so much. The AMT/ERTL FO kit was even at one time packaged and sold seperate from the kits.

It is a good idea to update to the 21st Century and replace the grain of wheat lamps with a 5 or 3mm white LED. A much brighter, reliable and much longer lasting improvement. If need simular jacketed and bundles strands of FO can be bought from Plastruct along with thier other lighting friendly clear plastics.

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:37 pm

Okay, I got all my parts except the drill bits and magnets (which Widget had also). Got a bunch of the 5mm flat white LEDs (and a couple ultra-bright UV LEDs for another project), some LED holders, shrink tubing, and lots more FO cable.

I think I'm wiring it like this.

The battery case and LED holders seem to fit well. I tested different glues for attaching the LED holders to the thrusters, and CA seems to be the obvious choice.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:48 pm

don't forget in that configuration current is additive, so the current per LED * the number of LEDS will be passing through that one resistor.

You find out how many watts you're resistor is dissipating -> Resistance (in ohms) * current (in Amps)

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:31 pm

Have you tested this wiring scheme? How did the LEDS look.

I did the math:
150 ohms times 0.200 Amps and that one resistor is eating 30 volts. you probably calculated the resistor for one LED 150*0.020 mA and the resistor is eating 3 volts. But one resistor in line with all LEDs has to pass the current all the LEDs are drawing, thus we say it is additive 10*0.020 mA, now the resistor is eating 10* the voltage, 30 volts!

Is it one resistor in line, then the wire buss the LEDS tap into? as you have drawn. Resistor should be 12.5 ohms in the configuration you have, 5.8 ohms if you go to 12 LEDs as suggested in the drawing.

It would be better to have one LED per resistor:
http://www.kc6sye.com/images/circuits/LED_buss.jpg

Also there's a note from another modeler in the power supplies sticky he has the specs on the capacity of AA's (how much usable energy is stored in them) and how much you can drain from them without heat build up or eating at the storage capacity. If you use too much current from a battery it's run-time charge more quickly drops (there is internal resistance that really starts to chew up the charge if you pull to much current out of it). He has set AA's at 50mA, you can draw more but expect the use time to drop faster. 10 LEDs at 20mA each is hitting 200mA constant draw.

radiofrog · Post by **radiofrog** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:22 am

Sparky, you just answered my next question before I could even ask it!

I had this image ready to post as some suggested wiring I had found, and I was wondering why it had multiple resistors. I hadn't yet wired up the bulbs, as I wanted to ask this question first. Thanks!!!

Now I can get to soldering. Unfortunately, though, to finish the drilling I now have to get a new Dremel since mine just died. Well, the motor runs, but no spinning.

ModelMan · Post by **ModelMan** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:28 pm

You don't want to use the dremel anyway. As nightmarish as it sounds, you want to use a pin vise and hand drill every last one of those little buggers. The dremel even at it's slowest will get away from you and run along the plastic. It's a lot of dangerous hassle. However if you are like me and have arthritis setting in, hand drilling utterly sucks. But when it's done, it will look far better.

If it helps, here's my YT series on my SD build. I will likely be doing a new installment soon as I am working on lights for several other builds over the next week or two and may as well move the SD along while I have all the gear out and about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZjiwo8 ... playnext=1

Interesting_Screen_Name · Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:13 pm

ModelMan wrote:You don't want to use the dremel anyway. As nightmarish as it sounds, you want to use a pin vise and hand drill every last one of those little buggers. The dremel even at it's slowest will get away from you and run along the plastic.

So true as I found out the hard way!

I posted recently about melting tiny parts thanks to the dremel at only 2k rpm. I picked up a squadren tools standard pin vise and it holds that tiny bit perfect. Slow and kinda a pain in the arse, but the results are ten times better with it.

get a pin vise. you'll be much happier in the end.