Can anyone recommend a cheap personal 3D printer?

Darthsideous · Post by **Darthsideous** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:53 pm

I found this but am just wondering if anyone has bought one from this company before.

http://pp3dp.com/

I'm looking at fabricating my own parts

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:16 am

It depends on what you're wanting to do, what would you think would be the smallest thickness you require and how detailed do you need your models?

Umi_Ryuzuki · Post by **Umi_Ryuzuki** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:40 pm

I think the car and the tie interceptor, pictured, are deceptive.

The machine only has a single deposition head.
So it can only print one material, starting from your base plate to the top of your model.

The advanced machines use a support material that bridges gaps and spaces.
If you are printing the car, what was the chassis printed on before the axles connected from the tires?
Even more obvious, the tie interceptor pilot section can not just be printed in thin air and hang there till the panel wings connect...

Something is fishy here.

Some creative cutting would need to be done to build some of those parts.
It would work as long as the model could support itself through the entire process.
What do those air cooling fins on the engine sit on when the first layer is deposited?

.

.

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:25 pm

It's not all that deceptive. The quality on those prints is terrible. Completely useless because of how thick it has to lay down the material. So if you were wanting to go for something like that you can easily see that it would not be a good choice.

Darthsideous · Post by **Darthsideous** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:34 pm

thanks Darth Viper and Umi, i am looking at starting out printing parts for a lunar models excelsior (new bridge), and detail parts for a 1/35 scale aliens dropship that I just purchased. So I'm hoping the parts would be detailed. I'm interested in learning how to work with this new technology, but also interested in producing quality parts with good details.

I think it produces parts with .2 mm thickness. I have to try to find that section again. The quality of the items in their photo gallery seemed good although I must admit the Tie interceptor has me a bit puzzeled as well.

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:48 am

It probably doesn't print at 0.2mm thickness, the way that thing works is by melting plastic and then layering it out like spaghetti. So the actual layer might be 0.2mm, but you would need to have several layers otherwise it wouldn't be strong enough.

The cheapest thing I've seen that wasn't absolutely useless was like $10,000

Otherwise they are really expensive. You might want to look into a service like Shapeways

Darthsideous · Post by **Darthsideous** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:23 pm

Thanks darth, before investing money into this. I think I'll try a service first

naoto · Post by **naoto** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:51 pm

I wonder how it compares to this: http://www.makerbot.com/

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:40 pm

Darthsideous wrote:I think it produces parts with .2 mm thickness. I have to try to find that section again. The quality of the items in their photo gallery seemed good although I must admit the Tie interceptor has me a bit puzzeled as well.

As DarethViper states, the layers are probably much thicker than .2mm (.008"). According to the literature, the _accuracy_ is .2mm. Th elayer thickness looks more like .015-.025" Very few of the melt-type RP machines get down below .010 and these are all in the $10-15K range.

We have a machine at work that produces parts at .010 or .013" thick. I've used them to make prototype parts., but they need a LOT of work to get rid of the 3-d "jaggies". If you want a part that needs little or no additional work you need layer thickness down below .0015". These are in the plastic printing range of machines and these parts are really expensive becasue to build up a given thickness takes much longer as the layer thickness decreases.

You really do get what you pay for with this sort of technology.

Paul

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:39 am

naoto wrote:I wonder how it compares to this: http://www.makerbot.com/

It's a similar thing, so not as useful.

Probably the best bet if you can't afford thousands for a high-end printer (since in the model world you really need the fine detail) is to use Shapeways. They've got a material that can print 0.3mm thick and 0.1mm details. That's almost the highest detail possible. And their costs are much lower than any other place I've checked. The only issue currently is that sometimes they've done prints where one half of the model has visible lines and other weird changes. They haven't been able to figure out why it does that yet. And they've got a good selection of other materials that can print in less than 1.0mm as well

All the other places usually can only go down to 1.0mm thickness.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:52 am

darthviper107 wrote:All the other places usually can only go down to 1.0mm thickness.

1 mm is .040"! I think you slipped a decimal place there.

The crude professional machines can get down to .010" (.25 mm). The better machines (for more money) can get down to less than one thou (0.00066" is the best I've seen).

These guys do good work in the 4-6 though thickness range for relatively little money:

http://moddler.com/

I haven't used them yet, but several kit companies here have and recommend them.

If you really, really want the higher resolutions, I've worked with "Solid Concepts" in California in sub 1 thou thickness and "Fine Line Prototyping" in the NC for 1 1/4 thou thickness. Both are reputable companies and turn around parts in very few days as long as your CAD model is good. If they have to clean that up, it takes longer & costs more. As you might expect. In the very fine resolutikons, expect to pay at least triple what it would cost in a thicker layer format, but also expect not to be able to capture the finest detail and to have to perform more clean up of the "jaggies".

HTH

Paul

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:01 am

When I said other places I was more talking about the places like Shapeways where you can upload your mesh and get it printed very quickly. Places like Moddler you have to email or call them and work out the project. I had tried using Moddler before, they emailed me back with a couple of questions and I never heard from them again.

I tried using Ownage as well, talked a bit and they were very busy so I was going to wait. After a while I contacted again and never heard back from them as well. And as a comparison of price--Ownage says they have the cheapest cost in the business, but something that's like $6 to print at Shapeways in the highest quality was going to be $75 at Ownage. And I can't imagine that Moddler would be much cheaper.

EDIT: And yes, I meant 1mm thickness. That is actually pretty small, but the main issue is the strength of the material. But many places simply can't have something less than 1mm thick.

And are you sure about any places that can do 0.00066" thick? That would be 0.01mm thick and 1/10th the thickness of a piece of paper. Are you sure that's not the layer thickness? I can't imagine that anyone would actually need something that thin, it would break way too easily.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:40 am

Ahhh, you were talking about minimum thickness of a finished part! I was talking layer thickness. Sorry. Dependiong upon what you are trying to make and the material you are using, small deatail as thin as .010 are possible, but they can't be very big.

And yes, 2/3 of a thou layer thickness is possible via Solid Concepts and Moddler. Many sites, like Fineline and Solid Concepts (and probably Moddler) allow you to upload your file, but it probably has to be in a proper format. I know nothing of "meshes", I'm an engineer and deal in CAD programs and solid file formats like STP. THose I just send in and the part shows up 2-5 days later.

Easy peasy.

Paul

Ramsayman · Post by **Ramsayman** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:05 pm

Just curious, what are the best/easiest/cheapest 3D modelling programs? I work on a PC so Mac stuff is out.

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:41 pm

Blender is free

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:44 pm

Ramsayman wrote:Just curious, what are the best/easiest/cheapest 3D modelling programs? I work on a PC so Mac stuff is out.

Three very different questions.

I'm an engineer, so I only know engineering CAD programs and not any of the 3D image programs. On that basis, I love (love) SolidWorks. It is quite easy to use is relatively inexpensive (under $8k per seat) and models in native 3D. It is not terribly good for surface modelling and doesn't do organic shapes worth crap. But as an engineering program, I think it offers the best combination of capability and ease of use at a very reasonable price. But not a home user price, of course. Programs like CATIA, ProEngineering & Unigraphics have more capability, but are significantly more expensive.

There are a host of 3D graphic modellers out there and some of them are much less expensive (some free), but are limited in their usefulness from an engineering POV. They are much better at creating graphics, though and that might be good enough. Creating finely detailed shaoes for a model tends to require more of an engineering approach than a graphics approach, but some subjects may be acceptable on either system.

Paul

Umi_Ryuzuki · Post by **Umi_Ryuzuki** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:47 pm

FX models has been running a 3d rapid prototype machine, and is
now offering printing services. They are supposed to be working up
a new web page, Could be worth a call.

http://www.fxmodels.com/SST612.shtml

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:21 pm

I just checked some stuff at zoomrp.com

They can do polyjet prints for a very low price and have the option for next day shipping. Otherwise they can still get it to you within a week.

However, it's only best used on things that you would spend $100 on.

So for instance, I've got a model I'm working on, it's pretty small (2" long and thin) and would cost about $48 to print with the highest quality at Zoomrp. Shapeways can print it at like $6

On the other hand, I've got a larger model (5.5" long) I'm working on that would be like $180 to print at Zoomrp whereas with Shapeways it would cost like $350

In these cases it looks like there's pretty good low-cost solutions for things both large and small

fxmodels · Post by **fxmodels** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:48 pm

Hi Folks..
I saw that some of you were interested in the 3D printing of parts... We do have a 3D Printer that we use for such requests. The cost is dependent on two things:
1: Size of the part
2: Resolution desired

Our machine can grow parts as large as 6"x 6" x 12" which is the max size of our grow area, and of course to any size less than that down to fractions of inches or mm. We have grow resolutions from 10 thousands down to one HALF thousandth. In other words, the part would feel as smooth as glass at the finest resolution. The finished parts can be:

1: moldable in silicone to make resin copies
2: investment cast to make metal pieces...

Our systems use two heads, the first is a deposition head that puts down the plastic material and the second is the head that deposits the wax encasement used to make sure delicate details are not lost to the process as the model grows.
After the plastic and wax layers are deposited, a milling cutter in the machine comes across and levels out the layer to make it perfectly smooth. Then a new layer is started. In this way the system can achieve very fine resolutions. Some of our parts were used to make the Turbine Blade Locks for the new Joint Strike Fighter engine even though we were using it for model parts!
In any case let me know if you need quotes on parts. We are happy to help. We find that resolutions of .001, .0015 are very clean, with .002, or .0025 being typically perfectly fine. You can see the lines at the two thousandths resolution but not feel them. Beyond that resolution you can begin to feel the layers increasingly as the layer resolution is reduced.

For timings, consider that a layer of 2 thousandths resolution takes half as long to grow as a layer of 1 thousandth. Stands to reason... double the resolution and you double the grow time. This also corresponds to a price that is higher although not 'doubled' .. We work out the costs pretty well and give incentives for jobs that need be run at higher res.
Thanks for the time, and let me know if you have questions...
Thanks,
Marc Dantonio

President
FX Models
Web: www.fxmodels.com
Email: info@fxmodels.com

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:28 am

So if you wanted to make a master print for use in making a kit for production, would it get high enough quality? Would it manage to get smooth enough for no cleanup?

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:59 pm

Below .002" layer thickness, the clean-up is limited to a light coating of Mr. Surface 500 or Future, lightly buffed to fill any residual jaggies. Only down below .001 can you really make master parts without any clean-up and even then, if the part is suppposed to be polished, like a canopy or bare metal, you still need to polish the part to get it perfectly smooth.

Paul

fxmodels · Post by **fxmodels** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:48 pm

[quote="Tankmodeler"]Below .002" layer thickness, the clean-up is limited to a light coating of Mr. Surface 500 or Future, lightly buffed to fill any residual jaggies. Only down below .001 can you really make master parts without any clean-up and even then, if the part is suppposed to be polished, like a canopy or bare metal, you still need to polish the part to get it perfectly smooth.

Paul[/quote]

Hi Paul,
Yes you are right, that MASTER parts are better created below one thousandth in resolution. At 1.5 thousandths and even 2 thousandths you can get reasonable parts as I said which is what I do all the time here. But since our machine goes down to HALF a thousandth in resolution we get surfaces that are as smooth as a tin can right off the machine. But... the down side is of course it takes longer and it is more expensive. At one thousandth resolution though we get very nice parts too of course. We grew Cochlear Implants for a medical company using only .001 resolution and they were more than fine. Similarly we used .001 to grow a magnified section of spinal vertebrae. One client model part we grew was a Cooper All Terrain tire which faithfully reproduced the raised striations of the radial belts seen inside the tire. Another .001 resolution project were the turbine blade locks on the F22 raptor engine that we grew for the engine maker. They came out very well too. They actually didnt need half thousandth resolution which seemed odd to me.

A good number of people in the hobby arena like how our .001 resolution provides them with more than adequate resolution and its all reasonable pricing as these newer machines do not use as much electricity and resources as previous iterations.
Thanks,
Marc

fxmodels · Post by **fxmodels** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:49 pm

[quote="Umi_Ryuzuki"]FX models has been running a 3d rapid prototype machine, and is
now offering printing services. They are supposed to be working up
a new web page, Could be worth a call.

http://www.fxmodels.com/SST612.shtml

[/quote]

Yes we ARE supposed to working up a web page... its coming ... promise...

xliny83 · Post by **xliny83** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:20 pm

whats a good 3D scanner ? .....(if they make one)

darthviper107 · Post by **darthviper107** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:53 am

3D Scanners are a much simpler matter, there's the NextEngine 3D scanner:

http://www.nextengine.com/

Alternately, you can build one yourself, using a camera, a laser and some software.

Darthsideous · Post by **Darthsideous** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:57 am

naoto wrote:I wonder how it compares to this: http://www.makerbot.com/

I found that too and was considering it due to the price point.

Darthsideous · Post by **Darthsideous** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:05 am

thanks guys this discussion has been extremely helpful.
I'm more of a pencil paper guy, so I also need to figure out how to create a 3d file either from scratch or a 3D scanner.

thanks fo everyone sharing their ideas on software and 3d scanners and such. Here's some research I had done. i am not sure of these products as i have never used them. here's my list:

Google 3D printing software
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/search ... 20Printing

Personal 3D printers: (free or cheap)
http://store.makerbot.com/
http://wiki.makerbot.com/how-to-print
http://reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page

Home made 3d scanners & 3d scanner software
http://shop.david-vision-systems.de/pro ... r-Kit.html

http://www.tgi3d.com/index.php?Page=Pho ... d=content2

http://wiki.makerbot.com/3d-scanner

I'll check out darthviper's suggestion for a 3D scanner as well. If you have any oppions of the new items listed above I'd love to hear them.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:46 am

Darthsideous wrote:Personal 3D printers: (free or cheap)
http://store.makerbot.com/
http://wiki.makerbot.com/how-to-print
http://reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page

Just remember, these two machines are really coarse and not terribly suitable for model parts except to make the basic gross shapes. You wan't get any appreciable detail out of them and the clean-up will be substantial.

Darthsideous · Post by **Darthsideous** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:33 pm

Thanks Tank, your right. I think I'll hold off on the printer right now and use a service until the quality gets better for home printers.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:51 pm

Darthsideous wrote:Thanks Tank, your right. I think I'll hold off on the printer right now and use a service until the quality gets better for home printers.

Given that we are talking accuracies under one thou and layer thicknesses in the 1-2 thou range, it is unlikely that home machines will approach this for quite some time. Achieving this level of precision requires components within the machine that are of significantly higher accuracy that the output accuracy of the machine as a whole.

Luckily, the costs of the services is dropping and allows the home modeller to get parts at really reasonable prices.

Paul

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