Plastic options for making a large-ish sign

[sbaxter]

I hope this is the best place for this … if a mod thinks there is a better sub-forum for it, feel free to move it.

Here at my job (at a university), we have a group of three buildings in our department. For 20-plus years, I've made signs for the buildings by applying inkjet prints to foam board and mounting them to various exterior walls. We get a year or two out of them before they need to be replaced. They are always placed under some cover, but the sun, humidity, and the occasional windswept rain get to them and add up. For the last few years, the design we've used is meant to emulate the look of bare, roughly-sanded metal, with the name of the building in the center -- but even from a very good printer, it doesn't look as much like metal as I'd like.

I have a newer supervisor with a more adventurous spirit, and we've discussed the possibility of trying to use the same design for signs made of something more substantial, which naturally makes me think of plastic (as much as I'd love to see them in actual metal). I figured someone here might have knowledge of the options and some pros and cons.

Here's what we need: The signs would be around three feet wide and maybe a little over two feet tall. The design would include four dados or grooves, about three or four millimeters deep and a similar width, cut across the surface from one side to the other, two or three inches from each edge, so it needs to be able to handle cutting with a dado stack, table saw blade, or router bit without melting (although we can choose a tool that would keep the speed of the blade or bit as low as possible) and be sturdy enough to not just snap as a result of the removal of that material, so I'm thinking the ideal thickness would be about 3/8ths of an inch, and probably no more than half an inch. It needs to be at least lightly sandable, and it needs to be paintable, although I'm not opposed to using an adhesion promoter to help with that. And I know it is all relative, but we'd like for the material not to cost an arm and a leg so we could actually get the project approved. We'd need to make at least six or seven of these to cover all the locations where we hang the foam board versions. My first thought was styrene, but I know there are other choices. Anyone have knowledge and/or recommendations they'd be willing to share?

Qapla'

SSB

[elend]

Well, I would recommend you use some sort of Aluminium-Plastic-Composite material like the original Dibond. This is quite light (at 3 mm strength), cheaper than metals, easy to work with, can be engrooved and / or bend, comes in different colors (even a brushed metal look) and keeps rigid / sturdy even at sizes bigger than you need. There are even cheaper options than the brandname out there and I am pretty sure you can order this stuff cut to size and probably even get it with the grooves as you need them. Foam board I usually do not recommend at this size, because this stuff works quite a lot and can change its size up to 2 cm in the sun, thus getting warped. Also it's very brittle in Winter. A well aimed icey snowball can already shatter it to pieces.

Additionally, the names of the buildings I would simply apply via car vinyl stickers which you can buy very cheap (online) and apply yourself. This stuff (decent brands at least) lasts at least 10 years in the rain and sun before having to be replaced. Alternatively you could order some digital prints on the same car vinyl and thus have gradients and / or photographs on the signs as well. If you still have some budget left you might want to consider CNCing the names into the composite material which is then ultimately sturdy and night invincible.

If I'd buy this material from my supplier (6 pcs. to your specs, so let's say 3,5 m² in total) it would cost me about a hundred euro bucks. The vinyl stickers maybe 50. You really can't get it much cheaper than that, even if you handcut your own stencils and spraypaint the names onto the signs.

[Andrew Gorman]

Another option is metal faced corroplast-
https://www.laminatorsinc.com/sign-pane ... /alumalite
It's used for a lot of signage, and is available in a brushed silver finish. I second the idea of vinyl letters- they are pretty much industry standard these days.

[sbaxter]

I brought the above suggestions to TPTB. I was asked to keep the search to the original parameters for various reasons. So, anyone have a recommendation that fits those criteria?

Qapla'

SSB

[TazMan2000]

Styrene doesn't machine very well because of it's low melting point, but it is possible if you take it slow. My recommendation is to use a carbide cutter on an acrylic sheet and then print your metal looking design with a UV flatbed printer. The signs should last several years, or more if you coat them with a UV stable coating.

TazMan2000

[jpolacchi]

No...you can't machine styrene. You would have better luck with ABS, but acrylic would be better(cast acrylic, not extruded). The cast acrylic is better.

[sbaxter]

A short update on this … as I just know everyone is dying to know what became of this.

My supervisor — whom I have known for nearly 25 years and is by by far the best work-related friend I have ever had — passed away unexpectedly early last week. He and I had been working to make this sign go from its original form (large prints mounted on foam board, which had to be replaced every year or so) to a more fully-realized physical form. I’m determined to finish at least one of these signs and then hope the results are well-received enough for TPTB to green light making an other half-dozen or so.

We had decided to do an all aluminum sign, and had the major visible piece for one cut on a water-jet. Reevaluating in the wake of my friend’s passing, I have decided to use plastic for the parts that will be visible behind the aluminum front plate. So much cheaper, and that part will be completely painted, so it will be well-protected and there should be no visual difference. I have all the paint I need except for some 2K clear, and the only other things I will need are four stainless steel bolts and threaded collars for same, because the sign will be installed on a brick wall.

I’ll follow up with results when I get them.

Qapla’

SSB

[southwestforests]

Oh, sorry about his passing.

Wishing you sign success. And even a sign of success.

[jpolacchi]

I wouldn't use anything else but sheet Acrylic d=for sign making. You might get away with ABS, but it won't hold up to the elements and you'll soon find you'll be needing another one and it really only comes in one color. Black, unless you want to paint it? Polycarbonate(or Lexan) would be the next option. Almost indestructible and takes to a router bit (or machining) pretty well.

[sbaxter]

I wouldn't use anything else but sheet Acrylic d=for sign making. You might get away with ABS, but it won't hold up to the elements and you'll soon find you'll be needing another one and it really only comes in one color. Black, unless you want to paint it? Polycarbonate(or Lexan) would be the next option. Almost indestructible and takes to a router bit (or machining) pretty well.

Well, I expect you were responding to the original question. We'll be using aluminum for the major part of the sign, with sheet styrene. Parts of the aluminum will be painted and the whole thing will get a 2K clear coat. Opening for the letters in the aluminum will be backed with laminated sheet styrene, which will be thoroughly painted (primer, metallic gold or gray, transparent red, and then a couple of clear coats. The sign will be mounted on a brick wall under a very generous overhang (at least 15 feet or so), and it will sit maybe 3/16ths of a inch off the brick, held in place by stainless steel bolts and using stainless steel washers to create the small amount of space between the back of the sign and the brick.

Truth be told, I actually do have enough acrylic sheet and scraps thereof that I could use those instead of styrene. I'll consider that option.

Qapla'

SSB

[jpolacchi]

Sorry if I butted in out of sequence. Styrene likes to turn yellow, just keep that in mind and if it is near any heat it will warp if not melt if in direct light/heat. Especially if it is on aluminum. Acrylic has a higher heat resistance and it comes in lots of types of colors. Lexan is more expensive, its virtually indestructible, but it glues horribly. Not to say you can't use acrylic solvent on it(you can) but due to the make up/design of polycarbonate, any glued joints/surfaces take this frosted over look. It looks bad on clear parts.

[sbaxter]

Sorry if I butted in out of sequence. Styrene likes to turn yellow, just keep that in mind and if it is near any heat it will warp if not melt if in direct light/heat. Especially if it is on aluminum. Acrylic has a higher heat resistance and it comes in lots of types of colors. Lexan is more expensive, its virtually indestructible, but it glues horribly. Not to say you can't use acrylic solvent on it(you can) but due to the make up/design of polycarbonate, any glued joints/surfaces take this frosted over look. It looks bad on clear parts.

First -- no apology necessary. The whole point of this is a system of exterior signs that will last at least the remainder of this building's life (and, if full approval for more is received, similar signs for two other buildings) -- or, at the very least, for signs that will last until I retire, which will almost certainly be in ten years at the outside. And you've given me food for thought; as I say, I do have some spare pieces of clear acrylic, enough to do at least four signs subbing for the styrene components I have been planning to use, so now I have an additional option.

For some more information, I can tell you that this building (where the first completed sign would go) is a seven-story building shaped something like a pedestal. The first and seventh floors have a smaller footprint than floors 2-6, which have a ring of outer offices on three sides; because of this, there is a large sheltered area outside the first floor on the north, east, and south sides, and on those three sides there are tapered columns on the exterior going from the ground up to the roof (the seventh floor has a exterior balcony). Here's a link to a Google Maps photo of the side of the building that faces southeast: https://tinyurl.com/4fhwcx87. While I was out, I measured the first floor's sheltered exterior area; it is actually 18 feet from the brick wall to the edge of the overhang, with a 12-foot ceiling in that area. Here is another Google Maps photo made at the southeast corner of the building -- you can see two of the signs I hope to replace with metal signs like the one I am making: https://tinyurl.com/y39y66u9. Also in this photo, the problem with the paper on foam board signs is readily apparent!

The metal sign I am making is essentially the same design as those in the photo, slightly smaller than what you see there (the actual dimensions are 31 inches wide by 21 inches tall, and the metal is slightly less than an eighth of an inch thick) and modified as needed to meet the demands of cutting the metal with a water jet. The lettering ("Keen," "Building," and "FSU Physics Department") is cut out of the metal and the plastic will be painted and mounted on the back of the metal in those areas; the edges of the metal lettering cutouts will be painted in pale gold. The horizontal and vertical lines will be masked and painted directly on the metal. The department seal will be done with a decal applied on a small aluminum disc that will be epoxied to the metal face. The metal signs will be mounted much higher on the wall than what you see here; they'll be near the top of the brick portion of the wall. I'm going to mount them higher to make it that much harder for wind-driven rain to get to them, and also to make it less likely that some passing doofus will try to mess with them or steal them. So -- especially on this building, they won't get a lot of direct sun on any given day. The first one to be installed would go on the side that faces the north-northeast, and will get little to no direct sunlight. On the remainder, other buildings and trees will keep direct sunlight away almost all the time, since the sun has to be pretty low in the sky to even have a chance of getting to them. In short, I'm not terribly concerned about melting plastic -- but maybe the acrylic might still be a better choice than styrene.

If I go with the clear acrylic, I wonder if I could do the "Keen" portion by painting the back of the acrylic -- first the transparent red, then the pale gold, and give those letters additional depth, given that some of the stock I have is about 6mm thick …

Qapla'

SSB

[jpolacchi]

Have you considered just going with an acrylic sign and vinyl lettering/design? Check out TAP Plastics. The acrylic itself can handle the outdoor environment. Not sure "how long lasting" vinyl lettering is? It may depend on the kind of weather it is exposed to? I imagine (depending) in a few years time the lettering and everything would need to be replaced.

[sbaxter]

Have you considered just going with an acrylic sign and vinyl lettering/design? Check out TAP Plastics. The acrylic itself can handle the outdoor environment. Not sure "how long lasting" vinyl lettering is? It may depend on the kind of weather it is exposed to? I imagine (depending) in a few years time the lettering and everything would need to be replaced.

We considered any number of things, including various plastic options. I think we settled on metal partly because the existing signage I had created for the department had been designed to look like metal already (the design was further refined from those you can see at the earlier links -- newer versions incorporate a "scratched metal" texture), so what we wanted most was to "fully realize" the intended effect. Also, I discovered I actually already have a pair of aluminum signs cut on the water-jet, rather than just one as I had thought. One is not quite as smoothly cut as the other, but from several feet away no one will be able to tell. And since I already have two cut signs, it doesn't make sense to discard them.

Qapla'

SSB

[jpolacchi]

That's true. Vinyl lettering/design might be a better option than paint also, or maybe not? I'm not sure?

[sbaxter]

That's true. Vinyl lettering/design might be a better option than paint also, or maybe not? I'm not sure?

I'm not sure either -- but in this case, the lettering (other than on the decal for the department seal) is physically cut out of the metal -- all the way through -- and the paint will be used on the edges of the cutouts and on the plastic layer that will be mounted on the back of the metal. I'll snap a photo of one of the metal pieces, since I have it up on my light table, and post it here later today -- maybe that will clarify things.

The university itself does signage for buildings, but those are made of a plastic composite (looks similar to the material used for composite decking boards, to my eyes), and they sit out on the grounds near buildings. This leads to some being rather oddly placed; the one for the Keen Building is only really visible from an access road that runs along the west side and is at a lower elevation than the other three sides. In addition, all of those signs are the same style across the entire campus. They do use vinyl lettering, which doesn't seem to hold up well to the elements, but that may have more to do with the composite material to which they are applied than to the vinyl lettering per se.

Qapla'

SSB