Lighting Models: Overcoming Intimidation?

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:29 pm

Hear ye, hear ye,

Let the support group for intimidated modelers come to order...... :squad:

Yesterday I was wistfully looking at my kit of the 1/350 NX-01, saying that is cries out for lighting, but being too afraid to start, fearing that I might irretrievably destroy the kit.

How do you guys overcome intimidation?

One guess I might have would be to start small. The one lighted model I've done was a Cardassian Galor Class (ertl). I got these little pre-wired grain-of-wheat craft light kits from Lee Valley.

I glued the lights in place and masked them, then proceeded as usual. It turned out ok, even won an award at local contest in Albuquerque. I'll post a pic if I find the model.

But this Enterprise beastie is a whole different animal.

What do you guys think?

Should I do a few smaller projects before tackling the big NX?

I know it sounds like I might be answering my own question, but I seriously want your: feedback, warnings, words of wisdom, random insults, bring it all!

I promise I will maintain the thread if we get a good discussion going.

jwrjr · Post by **jwrjr** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:51 pm

Intimidation? The 1/350 NX can do that. Despite it's size, it is not for beginners. Beginners should try something simpler - and by preference, expendable. This is so that if you make mistakes, no big loss. Even the best make mistakes from time to time. There are companies that make lighting kits for the NX. That might be useful for the instructions, if nothing else.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:47 am

Start with two kits, and know that if one dies in a fire you have one more to fall back on, helps reduce the pressure of not destroying a kit.

It also helps if you have to hack on a kit to add lights, like cutitng square winodws and holes. The NX-01 was kindly deisgned for lighting, it makes a huge difference having them do the infrastructure for lighitng. At lwas now you don't have to mold and cast clear parts for the engines.

DLMatthys · Post by **DLMatthys** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:34 pm

A first Star Trek model to light up and build is a AMT Klingon Bird of Prey.
Klingons suffer not intimidation!

On the hobbyshelves now...so expendable.

Throw all you can into it for lighting.

â€¢Open up windows and ports...refill with clear resins.
â€¢White LEDs for interior lights. Learn and use voltage and current limiting resisters.
â€¢Reshape LEDs to a smaller scale diameter by chucking them in a drill or lathe. File down the diameter for a better scale effect.
â€¢Use some Fiber optics to bring lights through tight spaces where most LEDs do not fit... like the front spot lights on the wings.
â€¢Build or incorperate a simple circuit from scratch or a circuit kit to flicker the Engine.
â€¢Build a display stand or enclosure to hold the model with controls...like a on and off switch.

If you get some of these skills nailed down first by first experiancing them the PL Refit will not be so intimidating.

Now go forth and...Make it glow!

Lord Abaddon · Post by **Lord Abaddon** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:33 pm

I'm with Zaphod 100%. The last model I put together was a combination ST TMP and TWoK kits (wanted the paneling on the TWoK) using grain-of-wheats. Came out darn nice too if I say so myself.

However, and thanks to Don for his comments, I know nothing about ohms, watts, etc. and haven't soldered a damn thing in years. Circuits? Flashers? Huh?

Now I've been looking at kits (including Don's and VoodooFX) and am thinking with the right instructions to follow I could probably do the soldering (are those "cold solder" "sold on TV" things any good?) and I'm fairly good with wires, small bits, etc. Models themselves aren't a problem.

I want to start small too, something like lighting up my AMT X-Wing and Falcon, maybe doing the PL Enterprises and/or Klingons.

So are the kits worthwhile for novices (novii?) like us?

Here's my old "grain-of-wheat" Big E (before it fell off a shelf...

)

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:58 pm

Mike I am lovin' that Big E. Exactly the sort of spotlight effect I want to be able to do.

Don, I really like your suggestion about the BoP. In fact, I have one of your lighting kits!

I have had a chance to reflect, and I think I will start even smaller than that. I have and ERTL TIE Interceptor and I think I'll do it with 3 LEDs: two reds for the engines and a yellow for the cockpit.

I think then I'll move up to the BoP or the ERTL Slave I.

I guess what I need to get used to is how to incorporate the lighting step into my normal model-building gig.

I think the TIE fighter will be an extension of the Galor, in that the only extra steps are to: 1) glue the LEDs and wires in place, 2)mask the LEDs with my handy-dandy Tamiya tape, and 3) proceed as usual. At least, that's what I'm guessing.

If you guys have any suggestions on order of lighting steps, I am absolutely all ears.

I believe the source of intimidation for me is knowing when to do what.

For example: with a Star Destroyer, I have seen some excellent advice regarding fiber optics. Here, I believe I should get the light bits in, glue the fiber optics in place with about an inch or so of excess, then go as usual.

However, when doing warp nacelles, saucers, strobes and other craziness, I am at a loss. Then pile on all the aztecing, and I am "all at sea". In physics, we call this a highly nonlinear problem.

Now obviously, I am not ready to do the Big E, because it would be more work than fun. But I would like to learn as much as possible from you guys, to maximize the fun. Thanks very much for your wisdom thus far, and I shall watch this space very closely.

Lord Abaddon · Post by **Lord Abaddon** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:22 pm

Thanks Zaphod for the compliment on that spotlighting effect. Back then what I did was paint the inside of the hull black (several coats) leaving bare areas where I wanted to show spotlighting, used aluminum foil to fold over the edges around the dish and secondary hull (avoiding covering windows) to give more reflective light, and the grain-of-wheat bulbs on the inside showed through the thin plastic to give the spotlight effect.

Someone needs to write an "Modeling Light Effects for Dummies" book for guys like us!

(Good heavens, you've got me using emoticons now too!

)

jwrjr · Post by **jwrjr** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:06 am

The spotlight effect is impressive. I would avoid 'grain of wheat' bulbs, though. The risk of burning out is more than I like. If you prefer bulbs, though, all is not lost. There is a bulb that I use from time to time. It is a type 6833 industrial bulb (3/32"diameter, 5 volts, 10,000 hour life expectancy). Jameco Electronics has had them in the past.

Lord Abaddon · Post by **Lord Abaddon** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:40 am

jwrjr wrote:The spotlight effect is impressive. I would avoid 'grain of wheat' bulbs, though. The risk of burning out is more than I like. If you prefer bulbs, though, all is not lost. There is a bulb that I use from time to time. It is a type 6833 industrial bulb (3/32"diameter, 5 volts, 10,000 hour life expectancy). Jameco Electronics has had them in the past.

Yeah, but this was back in around 1984 and I was 18 and didn't know a thing about even wheat bulbs back then.

And boy do I know about burn out. The best part of that model was the blue dilithium crystal chamber and glowing red impuse engines. I used a crumpled foil behind the wheat bulb to get the engine effect and then a bright white paper to get the crystal to glow more also off the same bulb (just had the paper and foil reflect in the right direction).

Guess what the first bulb to burn out was?

That's actually one of the reason's I'm so wary of doing any more electronics in my models. However I've heard and read enough here that LEDs last a lot, lot longer and if done right won't burn out for some long time.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:21 pm

http://www.kitsusa.net/phpstore/index.p ... egory&id=9

When I did the soldering demo I used some circuits from this store. I also got some thin white cold cathodes and a driver board. If you get the driver board be sure you get one for the right sized tubes, the 12 inch one was all they had listed but they had 4 inch tubes also listed, 2 four inch tubes work off the 12 inch driver, but you have to use two or you over drive, and over heat a single 4 inch tube.
http://www.kc6sye.com/techmages_10_22_05_b.html

davehal9000 · Post by **davehal9000** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:13 pm

I read this stuff and I think I'd have more luck trying my hand at opening a wormhole to get to work a little faster...

Astrazoic · Post by **Astrazoic** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:50 pm

I understand the intimidation issue.

As for electronics, I simply hire someone to deal with that, then I back engineer as required.

Works pretty well, and there are few worries of burning up components

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:20 pm

Just buy some starter kits and start building.

The first thing to learn is how to read basic schematics. The starter kits will do that for you.

They will also allow you to learn to solder so when you start experimenting with wiring your own kits you won't have to question whether or not the circuit is not working because of a soldering error or a design error.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:19 pm

Hey Right on Sparky,
that's a great idea. I looked at that link of kits above, lotsa good stuff. I've got payday coming up in a couple weeks, I think I'll get a couple of the small ones.
Now that I have a digital camera, I'll start posting stuff as I get it done.
Zaphod

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:38 pm

My first kit was an LED christmass tree, the simpler one not the one they have with flashing LEDs. I nearly destroyed it trying to get the LEDs I had put in backwords removed and put back in the correct way. I think the silkcreen (it shows which way the LEd should go in) was wonrg and so I had to re do some twice.

The kit I have tried form them and know it works is the sequence flasher.
http://www.kc6sye.com/images/images_10_ ... s_demo.jpg

This circuit is setup to have one led on at a time. I made a 'copy' of it to give me one LED off at a time, oh and twice as many LEDs, and change the speed the sequence runs at.
http://www.kc6sye.com/images/images_02_ ... ircuit.jpg

jmartin · Post by **jmartin** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:59 pm

First, thanks to everyone for their insight here, and to zaphod for posing the question in the first place. I was going to start a thread in the Star Trek, but thought that I should do a search for similar topics and found this. Like Zaphod, I've been looking at the 1/350 NX-01 (and the refit) for a long time. I'm getting itchy to start, but really need to make a decision about lighting. I'm not sure if I'm "intimidated" (well, maybe a little) to use the original phrase, but I'm debating if it's worth it. Here's my thinking:

Light the model

*Lighting makes it more accurate. Look at any of Don's models and you immediately think of the "real" ship. Same can be said with a lot of other models out there.
*Lighting makes a better "presentation." Lighting a model really makes it stand out. There's also the "wow" factor.
*It is impossible to match the lighted areas by painting. Since this is the only way to make it look like the real ship without light, this is a problem (except if you are going for a powered-down look, which to me looks like the ship has been abandoned).
*Lighting is the only way that certain details can be seen, such as the arboretum or shuttle bay on the refit.

Don't light the model

*Lights/lighting kits/etc. are expensive. The lighting kit for the NX-01 by voodoo fx is $175, which from what I've looked into is very fair. It is still about six or seven dinners out with the wife.
*Lighting the model makes for an added degree of difficulty, especially troublesome for a complicated kit like the big NX-01. (I played with it a while last night to figure out how to point the nacelles in the right direction..sheesh....)
*I would imagine that the model is unlit almost all of the time. If I'm just admiring my work or showing off to a friend, I might flip the switch, but then turn it off after a few minutes. What do you guys do?
*It is still difficult to duplicate the studio model. This is especially true for the spotlights on the refit. Raytheon on the hobbytalk boards (and some others) have done an excellent job with this, I should mention.

So I'm undecided. Mostly I wonder if it's worth it to go through the hassle if the lights are off most of the time. Any advice, thoughts, personal anecdotes would be most welcome.

John

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:10 pm

LEDs can be on for a long time, they have a very long life, and they don't mind shipping vibration to most extent (the virbariton of being on an airplane or in machinery do cause metal fatigue even on electronic components' soldered connections).

If you want to add some FX like when the model detects low light it comes on automatically, this makes it a neat effect. you can also rig it to come on for different lengths of time at different times during the day. Even sequency through different lighting modes:
engines on and 'running'
some windows on, then when the night shift comes on, some lights go off, and others come on.
There's a lot you can do that allows the staic model to be light but not on constant.

Also you may just start with a simple lighting effect, so you aren't getting into the $175 kit. Then you can decide, if the engines 'ran' and torpedoes lunched, this would be really worth it.

Matthew Usher · Post by **Matthew Usher** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:06 pm

A couple of suggestions come to mind, particularly if you're not electronically inclined:

There are lots of prewired circuits out there. There are several sci-fi specific vendors here on SM, and also consider the model-railroad folks. They use a lot of lights, and there are a lot of cool pre-wired strobe and flasher units out there.

Also, I'd suggest starting small. Find an inexpensive kit and add a couple of LEDs. You'll learn the basics of wire routing, kit modification, etc. Radio Shack used to offer a big grab-bag container of LEDs -- it was inexpensive, and if you trashed one or two with the wrong voltage it was no big deal.

Thankfully, I have a nice big electronics/scientific equipment surplus store here in Milwaukee, and it has bins of lights, transformers, and fiber optics dirt cheap. It's great for experimenting.

But whatever you do, do jump in. I think lighting a model is half the fun.

Matt @ FSM

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:52 pm

Right on Matt, great to hear from you!

I had forgotten about the train folks; they invented lighting models.
Yeah, I'm going to start small and go from there. Also, I'm totally going to buy a couple of the learn-to-solder kits Sparky referenced in the web site kitsusa.
I'm knee-deep in geometry tests to grade, but plan to get a LOT of model building done this weekend!

Matthew Usher · Post by **Matthew Usher** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:15 pm

zaphod wrote:Right on Matt, great to hear from you!
I had forgotten about the train folks; they invented lighting models.
Yeah, I'm going to start small and go from there. Also, I'm totally going to buy a couple of the learn-to-solder kits Sparky referenced in the web site kitsusa.
I'm knee-deep in geometry tests to grade, but plan to get a LOT of model building done this weekend!

Geometry was my favorite math, by the way.

I hope this isn't stepping on any toes, but take a look at www.allelectronics.com and click on "kits." They have some nice, easily adapted, electronic kits that are great fun to build, and clearly geared toward beginners (whom I'm counting myself among).

Along the same lines, I picked up the AMT/Ertl SW B-wing fighter last night, and I'm thinking of ways to light it...

Have a good weekend,

Matt

MillenniumFalsehood · Post by **MillenniumFalsehood** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:12 pm

My advice: Start with Star Wars, then move on to Star Trek. As far as lighting goes, Star Wars models are usually nothing more than a few engines, and then one or two cockpit lights(or hundreds of fiber optics, in the case of capital ships). Star Trek ships are considerably more lighting-intensive(except for the one-off-ers, and secondary ships).

en'til Zog · Post by **en'til Zog** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:43 am

Good advice, all!

My thoughts - lighting stuff is like modeling. Start simple, and work you way up.

Also, each time you come up with what you think you want IN a model, try building just the lighting bits OUTSIDE of that model on a breadboard, or with simple wire wrap.

Turn it on. Listen for smoke, or look for flames, or other signs of failure. Let the thing RUN for a while to see if it's going to melt down after a couple of hours. FEEL the bits to see if any of them are overheating. Carefully.

It's better to have a circuit croak where you can fiddle with it than imured in a model.

And remember: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid! (Not that any of us are stupid - that's just the easy way to remember it.) A good, simple scheme that works is better than a grand, complicated one that doesn't.

Oh, Matt? GREAT WORK on FSM - I'm gonna subscribe again for the first time in years.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:12 pm

Emperor Zog!

Once again, you are a beacon in the fog.

Thanks for the advice!

en'til Zog · Post by **en'til Zog** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:57 am

...a beacon in the Frog?

Zaphod! HOW DID YOU FIND OUT AB....

Um...

Never mind.

35th-scale · Post by **35th-scale** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:27 am

zaphod wrote:Hear ye, hear ye,
Let the support group for intimidated modelers come to order......

I started reading this thread and thought "That's me!" I've 2 kits awaiting construction & lighting: The PL 1/350 NX-01 and a Star Destroyer with fiber optic kit. I've even bought a lighting kit for the NX-01, but am still afraid to start. After reading this thread, maybe I'll start....

Anyway, sign me up for the suppoort group!

jwrjr · Post by **jwrjr** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:25 pm

The best way to learn how to do it is to do it. But try an easy one first before trying a big one like the NX or refit.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:47 pm

Zog I menat to finish posting your breadboard help pics, I'll try to remember to get to it tonight when i get home.

grayson72 · Post by **grayson72** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:08 pm

Ok so if you were going to build the NX or the Refit would you light the entire thing first and then paint it afterwards or is it a mix of lights, assembly and painting throughout?

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:18 pm

Plan you'r lighting, LEDs fiber optics, flashers, circuit boards, and power feeds.

Paint the insides. A layer of black then white. You will really need a good thick layer of black to stop light bleed. Paint then put a powered white LED next to the spots where you plan to light/mount LEDs. you don't want to have to slather paint on the out side to hide light bleed.

There are tricks to isolate the LED light spill but your last line of defense has to be setup up first, the inside coat of paint. (black heat shrink around the LED and fiber bundle, and black CA bottom of the page at this link).
http://www.kc6sye.com/techmages_11_10_06.html

Then there may be sub assemblies you can build with wire dangelies and glue points that you paint up to the pre-decal point.

There was an online build by TrekmanScott that had some good examples of mods he had to do to block or hide LEDs, it was a Cardissian ship.
http://www.starshipmodeler.com/olb/ss_card.cfm

jwrjr · Post by **jwrjr** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:53 pm

I largely agree with Sparky, except that I use an interior undercoar of a metallic color (but not Testors' Silver) rather than black.

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Lighting Models: Overcoming Intimidation?

Lighting Models: Overcoming Intimidation?

Re: Lighting Models: Overcoming Intimidation?