Future Woes.

suwalski · Post by **suwalski** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:14 pm

Hello,

Every time I use Future, I seem to get results like this:

http://pat.suwalski.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=819

To get this, I paint with Testor's Acryl paints, thinned 40% with their thinner. I wait a day or two, and do a single wet coat of Future. I wait 48 hours, and apply a wet coat of Testor's Flat Acryl, thinned 50%.

Anyone seen this before?

Lt. Z0mBe · Post by **Lt. Z0mBe** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:09 am

I have seen cracking like this before in a variety of mediums. It is caused by outgassing.

Basically, on or more underlying coats has not fully cured and is venting through a coat layered upon it as it cures.

For example, the first coat isn't quite cured, and Future is placed over it and the Future cures in a hurry before the underlying coat is cured. The underlying coat continues curing and gasses through the Future, causing it to crack.

Here's what I recommend, judging from the picture. Cut the thickness of the coats waaaaay down. This will speed up cure time. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "wet coat" but it looks like it's a heavy coat from the picture. With Future, you need to keep it light, and with low pressure when airbrushed. The same goes with the flat acryl. Remember, Future is self-leveling, and as such, can be lightly misted.

I hope this helps.

Kenny

P. S. - one more little tip. When thinning paints, don't worry so much about percentages, think more in terms of consistency. Ideally, you want the paint to be thinned to about the consistency of milk. You'll find this ho,ds true for all types of paint and most airbrushes.

I

starmanmm · Post by **starmanmm** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:50 am

On the positive side, if you wanted to create a worn out or age effect, this is perfect! Just go over it with a wash and it will look great!

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:37 pm

Boy... er, no never had that issue. A 2 day dry time should be enough, I'd go with the Looey's suggestions.

DX-SFX · Post by **DX-SFX** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:28 pm

I don't think outgassing is the problem. It's much simpler than that. You're right that the lower layers of paint aren't yet dry. The cracking is caused by the top layer shrinking as it dries and because it's essentially lying on a surface that isn't anchored to the solid surface below, it can slide around easily and thus cracks. This is quite common in the auto trade where different incompatible brands of paint are sprayed on top of one another. Sometimes the solvent in the paint on top is absorbed and resoftens the paint below. The top coat dries off quickly forming a skin which inhibits the paint below drying out again. If you spray a paint that is naturally thin and brittle on top of a thick paint that has a lot of plasticisers, this sort of cracking is typical.

karim · Post by **karim** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:32 pm

Personally, I've had nothing by trouble with MM Arcyl paints. I've used Poly Scale paint for the last few years and have had nothing but joy with them.

Even better, PolyScale clear flat appears to be perfectly compatible with future, so you can mix the two in-brush for a series of progressively flatter clear finishes.

suwalski · Post by **suwalski** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:38 pm

Thanks for the advice. I'll experiment further on spare parts.

My problem is actually applying the Future thin. I go at 15 psi, on a brand new Tan (fine) tip on my Aztek A470 airbrush, and I just can't see it self-level. I find it beads unless there is a consistent coat across the whole thing, thus my "wet" coat.

I've read the whole sticky thread about Future, it looks like many people have that problem.

Still, I think that DX-SFX has it right; the Acryl Flat isn't sticking to the Future, and as it contracts while drying it cracks... how do you do thin coats with this stuff without having a rough finish?

suwalski · Post by **suwalski** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:24 am

starmanmm:

I took you advice and weathered it!:

http://pat.suwalski.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=823

Then I went and ruined it by dullcoating over that! Don't worry, it's a piece I made just to play with weathering techniques. But it's always nice to know that dullcote can ruin your model twice in as many days...

Lt. Z0mBe · Post by **Lt. Z0mBe** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:55 am

suwalski wrote:Thanks for the advice. I'll experiment further on spare parts.

My problem is actually applying the Future thin. I go at 15 psi, on a brand new Tan (fine) tip on my Aztek A470 airbrush, and I just can't see it self-level. I find it beads unless there is a consistent coat across the whole thing, thus my "wet" coat.

I've read the whole sticky thread about Future, it looks like many people have that problem.

Still, I think that DX-SFX has it right; the Acryl Flat isn't sticking to the Future, and as it contracts while drying it cracks... how do you do thin coats with this stuff without having a rough finish?

What about adding some Future to your ACryl flat?

You'll end up with a nice, smooth, flat coat.

By "some," I mean just a little, by the way.

Kenny

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:31 am

'Cept I paint Acryl flat over my Future all the time. Difference is the base coat is Tamiya or Gunze, which makes me think it's the MM that's the problem.

TREKKRIFFIC · Post by **TREKKRIFFIC** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:59 am

When I'm applying future, I usually go thicker rather than thin. Any excess I blow offf with canned air. Works great and NO puddles !
Also, I avoid thinning it down too much; about an 80/20 mix of future with alcohol works best IMO. Any thinner and it forms droplets.

starmanmm · Post by **starmanmm** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:36 pm

I don't thin future. I just spray it at around 12psi

Post by **TER-OR** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:41 pm

Yeah, it's overcoating.

The MM Acryl and Polyscale are less forgiving than Gunze and Tamiya. Two or three thin coats are better than one thick coat. I frequently apply thin Future coats between colors to help protect during masking.

suwalski · Post by **suwalski** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:18 pm

Hi Ter-or,

I took your advice and tried three thin coats:

http://pat.suwalski.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=826

Does that look right? I threw in a penny for scale. Looks a little rough to me. Unlike a single thick coat, it's not as reflective as glass.

This was done at 15 psi, with the tan (fine) nozzle on my A470.

And yes, I cast this part a bunch of times just to play with all of this. I definitely recommend this sort of exercise to anyone who, like me, isn't completely confident with their m4d 5k177z... lack thereof, or whatnot.

Thanks again gentlemen.

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:23 pm

Might try a little higher pressure for finer atomiszation.

But, take my advice with a grain of salt, I absolutely suck at gloss coats.

macfrank · Post by **macfrank** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:36 pm

Hmmm... I use Future and an A470. I've seen graininess like that before, and it's usually because:

1- The Future started to dry in transit to the part.
2- The Future wasn't thinned.
3- A combination of the above

I would try thinning the Future (to a "milk-like consistency") and reapplying (in thin coats).

If you have a hair dryer handy, apply the Future from say 8 - 10", then hit the part with a few seconds of warm air from the hair dryer. Apply the next layer and repeat.

You can also gently buff out a hardened Future with a Scotchbrite pad. This can smooth the surface considerably.

Frank

Post by **TER-OR** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:10 pm

Yeah, you might want to thin it a bit, or knock your pressure down.

Most of the time I'm not interested in a gloss coat, though. I'm glossing to decal then later dullcoating.

IIRC, the last time I wanted a fullly glossy model I thinned the Future with alcohol and water, and used a reduced air pressure. That was a while ago, though.

CaptainHawk1 · Post by **CaptainHawk1** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:36 pm

OK... here's the deal. That crackling that he showed in the beginning of thread I believe is caused by the paint not being cured yet, as well. While I don't know anything about "outgassing," I do know the circumstances of the 2 times it happened to me. Once with Future, and once with using a rattle can of Plastikote.

1.) I applied the Future to the Enterprise A I am working on and was fine everywhere but one 4" x 2" swath in the Engineering hull and I had the exact same results that we saw in the beginning of this thread. It just so happened that I had repainted that particular section the night before (the rest of the ship had over a week to cure). It freaked me out completely, but I just sanded it down and resprayed it w/Future immediately and it was fine. I think when I sanded it, I also sanded off whatever still hadn't cured at that point, hence the good results.

2.) I painted the stand using Duplicolor primer and Plastikote, metallic pewter or something like that. Duplicolor primer is very thick and probably needs at least 48 hours to cure. I think I let it cure about 18. When I sprayed the Plastikote I had the same thing happened that happened with the Future. This time it took several attempts at sanding and repainting before I was able to correct that mistake.

As far as sealing w/Future I am self taught and this is the first model I ever did it on. The technique that I used was simple:

1.) Don't thin it, it's fine the way it is.
2.) I don't use my air compressor or a good airbrush to apply it. I use the basic Testor's airbrushing kit (the kind that snaps on to the can of propellant) and a can of Badger Propel (Testor's air sucks). It works like a charm.

Also, when it comes to those dip-tubes, I'm not even using them anymore. When I went apply the Future, I realized I couldn't find any dip-tubes... so I improvised. I cut the tip off of a pipette and it not only worked, it works better than the dip-tubes. Plus, they're easier to clean and you can just throw 'em out as they're cheap easy to find.

-Shawn

Lonewolf · Post by **Lonewolf** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:47 am

I apply Future by hand with a wide brush. That way I can deal with pooling issues and bubbles while the Future is still wet.

I haven't tried applying it through an airbrush yet, but I might at some point.

bluesman · Post by **bluesman** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:12 pm

Unless you're doing your model in a glossy finish, you can had brush future where th decals go. I usually apply future, let it cure, decal, let the decals dry and future over the decals, leat that cure then dull coat.

TREKKRIFFIC · Post by **TREKKRIFFIC** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:37 pm

bluesman wrote:Unless you're doing your model in a glossy finish, you can had brush future where th decals go. I usually apply future, let it cure, decal, let the decals dry and future over the decals, leat that cure then dull coat.

Yep. I use an airbrush for the future but that's the sequence I use too.

CaptainHawk1 · Post by **CaptainHawk1** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:36 pm

bluesman wrote:Unless you're doing your model in a glossy finish, you can had brush future where th decals go. I usually apply future, let it cure, decal, let the decals dry and future over the decals, leat that cure then dull coat.

Good tip, but I don't even aztec paint anymore, I just use decals so I've got no choice but to either futre the whole damned thing or make sure I use nothing but glossy paints.

-Shawn