reducing ratios for hobby paints and others?

[jpolacchi]

I don't know if this subject was discussed or not?I ddin;'t read through all of the threads.I imagine at one point or another it was touched on some?Anyway,my question is to the more advanced and experienced airbrushers out there.I am still learing to use my double action brush,but what I do know is that for not only realistic purposes of applying the paint skeme to any model/miniature in very thin coats is the ability to reduce paint to be able to accomplish that.

Thick hobby paints have to be run on the higher end of psi,somewhere between 25 and 40psi at times.For applying primer,this is fine,but for final coats and/or multiple/multi layer and color coats and paint skemes...being able to reduce paint to its most extreme has its benfits.A reduced paint can be run on very low air pressure.While learning from a master of the airbrush,I was airbrushing with as little as 7-10psi practicing with urethanes.This means little to no overspray and being able to work really close to your surface for fine detailed work.

I was wondering if anyone out there reduces their Model Master,Flowquill,Testors or other hobby enamel/lacquer or acrylic beyond the recomended specs?Both Model Master and Floquil recomend to reduce their enamels no more than 25% as do other manfacturers such as Tesor Acrylics,Tamiya,Polly S ect,ect.

I've been to chicken to experiment,and part of that is the danger of over reducing paints is destroying the paint's integrity.You can loose adhesive properties and develope a number of other problems and headaches,basically destory all that hard work.I was curious if anyone out there has had problems/painting difficulties reducing hobby enamels or lacquers (acrylic lacquers or water based acrylics) by 50-60% or more?

[Joseph Osborn]

The old rule of thumb for hobby enamels was 1:1 paint to thinner for flat colors and 1:2 for gloss to get the paint to a milk-like consistency. I use acrylics almost exclusively these days (the various RPM/Testors brands) and I like that most of them are ready to spray right out of the bottle with no thinning at all. But often I will thin my acrylics with Liquitex Airbrush Medium at about a 2:1 or 3:1 paint to medium ratio, which makes for a very thin paint. There's no reason to be afraid to experiment-- just get any old model you don't really care about and spray some paint. Make some notes on the mixtures you've used on different parts of the model and then see what happens over a week/month/year. In my experience, most paint problems show themselves within hours of application. When a problem occurs, the culprit is usually improper surface prep or laying down too much paint, not the ratio of thinner to paint. For certain effects, I think it would be perfectly fine to go past milk-like consistency to something like water consistency. I'd want to make sure I was spraying it onto a properly prepped surface, though.

[jpolacchi]

Hey Joseph,thanks for your feedback,it is much appreciated. I like both water based acrylics and solvet based enamels and/or arcylic lacquers.In the past,most of my paint skemes were done with aresol cans,hand painting and lots of weatheing with washes,dry brush and some pastel work.I've really only begun to learn how to use a double action brush,and it may seem harmless at first,but to me a very daunting skill.The only real difficult part is getting the hand cordination down, at least for myself.

Anyway,not to get too side tracked, I have had problems with using the Liquitex Airbrush Medium.I was attempting to use it earlier this summer(it was very hot) and the airbrush medium changed the opaque black paint to a Charcoal Grey.The paint also gelled quickly in the paint cup and I had to turn the psi up to around 35-40 psi just to make it spray correctly.

For an acrylic paint such as Liquitex(or any for that matter?),wouldn't water be a better reducing agent rather than the airbrush medium?It is colorless and will not change the color of your pigment as the airbrush medium does.The problem is,that the manufactures say not to reduce Liquitex beyond 25% with water,otherwise you develop adhesion problems,flaking and cracking of the painted surface when it cures.

However,on the tech website it states that Liquitex Acrylics can be thinned up to 80% with water,so I don't understand?Why the contradicting information?I've also found this with the use of other paints both water based acrylics and enamels such as Testors,Model Master and Flowquil.Over thinning supposidly breaks the paint down and causes a whole world of problems.

I would like to get paints down to,or at least close to a water like consistency just for the sole purpose of being able to work with a low psi and to get real close to the work to do detailed paint skemes.I don't think it would be a problem if one has to do multiple coats to "build up" paint whether it is an opaque color or a multi layered paint skeme like working with transparent pigments.Is it not better to be able to control and maniplate the paint to make it do what you want rather than the other way around?

[Joseph Osborn]

Water is usually a last resort due to surface tension. Distilled water from the drug store would be the best to use, but I think plain water really mucks up the acrylic paint's chemistry. A lot of people use cheap windshield washer fluid (AKA "blue water") and swear by it. I'll use it to flush out my airbrush occasionally. I try to avoid painting whenever it's very hot. But if Al Gore is correct, we may not have much choice in a few years I've never noticed my colors taking on a whitish hue from the Liquitex medium. I figure it's similar to the clear Acryl from Testors: they are milky white in the bottle and in the cup, but after they are sprayed and dry, they are clear. I rarely go over 15-20psi for normal painting. All I can say is work at it and learn how the paints will react with your technique. Oh, yeah-- double action airbrushes are a real pain to learn on. I used a Badger 200 for years until I got a Paasche VL and an Aztek That Badger was solid!

[jpolacchi]

Thanks for getting back to me again Joseph so quickly.I did/was meaning "distilled" water.I would never use plain tap water because of all the impurities and additives like added chlorine,copper and sodium etc,etc.Using a single action brush to me was really no diferent than using an aresol can.I wanted something with more control,especially due to the smaller commercial scales we have to work with,the exception to the "studio" scale garage kits where a single action would be fine I think?

I have the Pasche VL internal mix double action brush.I was learning with an Iwata over the summer,but it was a gravity feed and it was a pretty "soild" instrument as well.I often wonder if I have decided on the wrong brush?My inexperience with airbrushing shows both in my confidence of using the brush and my painting capabilities.

I have some odd mediums I have purchased for projects,such as a line of pearlescent acrylic inks made by a German company called Shimke(not trhe Daler Rowny inks).They are really far closer to paints rather than inks,they work virtually the same.They were the only pigments I could find that could be used and matched to the paint skeme of the re-fit Enterprise.They have their own reducer,but water can be used sparringly up to 25% as well.

How's that double action Aztec work?I've heard/read articles of different opinions about them.I have heard that Badger makes a good brush as well.I can't recall why I chose Pasche?Probably because they are a long time company that has a long and well known reputation.

Getting back to paint and thinning techniques,I've read in FSM on more than one occassion that you can add a drop of liquid dish detergent to acryics to "break" the surface tension.I've never tried it myself and don't know how that works to be honest?I thought the addition of liquid dish soap would cause the paint to "froth" and you would get some kind of weird foamy paint surface.I guess that doesn't happen?

As for other paints,I've been looking at this line of acrylic lacquers that has been made for the taxedermy industry carried by a company called WASCO.They have a wide range of earthy and flesh tone colors,as well as sparkling mettalic and pearlescent colors (for fish).I'm considering to try those as opposed to the Liquitex Acrylics now,but I had purchased over $100.00 of liquitex paints earlier this summer and now I not sure if I want to use them,or what to do with them?

I did buy this other Liquitex product to thin the acrylics with,but that one apparently you cannot reduce paints with over 25%.It is colorless,but you have to dilute it with 20 parts distilled water,adding it strait will destroy the paint.I'm hoping to maybe get better results using it instead of the airbrush medium.I thought the airbrush medium was very thick and didn't really think the soft body acrylics as well as I was hoping.

[Joseph Osborn]

Honestly, I use the two Azteks I have about 95% of the time now because they are sooooo easy to clean and maintain. And I bought a bunch of nozzles at Hobby Lobby when they clearanced them. My Paasche VL likes enamels and lacquers much better than acrylics, though. It has the fine tip so I guess that's the reason. I had a heavy needle and tip, but I messed up that tip and never bothered replacing it after got the first Aztek. One of the best advantages of having a Paasche is the parts are easy to get and rather inexpensive.

The only time I use dishwashing liquid with acrylics is when I'm handbrushing. I'll add a couple of drops to distilled water and use it to make washes and to extend the paint's working time. I've never even thought about adding it to water for airbrushing. Man, I imagine that would make some crazy bubbles. On a side note, I also add dishwashing liquid to the water when I dip my decals. It seems to make the application a little easier.

I don't have much experience with airbrushing paints outside of the regular hobby brands. I suppose the most exotic paints I use are the $.87 craft acrylics from Wal-Mart Usually if a premium paint maker has a "system" of paints and reducers then you have to stick with what they recommend. Part of the price you pay is the expectation of having consistent quality. That's why automotive paints cost so much-- you generally only get one shot to get it right and they're engineered to perform consistently within a given range of variables.

[TER-OR]

Gunze and Tamiya are pretty ready to go out-of-the-bottle, but I frequently find them easier with a bit of thinning. I add 90+% Isopropyl alcohol and a little water. Remember, alcohol and water are an azeotropic mixture, and will evaporate together.

Polyscale I like, but don't paint too thick, and use their thinner.

Model Master Acryl sometimes I'll add a bit of water if it looks thick.

I've used AV Modelcrylic thinned about 50% with water. Their Airbrush-ready paints are perfect from the bottle.


And remember, gloss paints won't cover as well as matte or semi-gloss. Personally, I prefer semi-gloss for most airbrushing. You can add Flat Base from Gunze or Tamiya - it does help coverage.

[jpolacchi]

I've read how the Aztec brushes have a really simplified maintenance.I liked that part,but don't really know how well they perform?The Pasche VL I have has a #3 needle I think?I don't think I could get a smaller needle for that brush,maybe a #2 needle,or it wasn't recomended for use with acrylics,lacquers or enamels.Some other model that isn't made any longer had a #1 tip,but its been out of production for some time.

I find it to be a pain in the a$#! to have to disassemble the brush every time after using it and when changing colors.Pasche makes an AB Double Action Turbine brush but it is made more for using water colors,thinned inks and dyes.Not for paint because the needle is so small.Its a #1 needle I think and you can lay down lines nearly the diameter of a couple hairs.I've read that you can thin acrylics with either isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol.I guess they are a "neutral" reducer and won't mess with the paint?I've not heard of AV Model Acrylic paints?

[macfrank]

I use denatured alcohol both to thin and remove Acryl paint. It's about the only thing that'll remove dried Acryl easily without damaging the underlying plastic.
I use an Aztec 470 and acrylics exclusively and always thin the paints, mainly because I like to lay down many layers of very thin paint rather than a single layer of thicker paint.

[Joseph Osborn]

http://www.dixieart.com/VLParts.html

Shows the parts breakdown on the VL. If you have a #3 tip & needle, then that's the medium setup. I can shoot any solvent-based paint through my fine tip; water-based acrylics not so good. The heavy tip worked well with acrylics, but the pattern was more coarse. The tear-down time is the reason I like using the Aztek. I just keep all my Aztek nozzles in a jar filled with Createx airbrush cleaner and they are ready to go when I need them and when I'm finished I just shoot some cleaner through the brush and put the nozzle back into the bath. Everybody raves about the easy maintenance and performance of the Iwata airbrushes, so I figure one day I'll switch over to that platform. I can't really quantify how well the Aztek performs. I'm not a fanatic over ultra-fine lines and that kind of thing; I use a lot of masks and layering and I find the Aztek works very well for my needs. The VL has been a standard airbrush for all kinds of applications for a long time, so I think you should be able to tune it to work with your paints without too much trouble.