Scatchbuilding masters - i'm done, as in i give up

OdysseySlipways · Post by **OdysseySlipways** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:04 pm

I am tired of tring to work on my masters as nothing seems to glue together. I am using Evergreen stripping to make up the greeble for the brim trench of the Allegiance so i can send it out to ralph soon, but for at least two weeks of trying, i can't get a damn thing to stick.

I had this problem before and gave up and have been buggy to get some work done on it (at least finish up the brim trench area before shipping it out) to save me some time and money (mostly save money). so i thought, well, maybe it's just too cool (being it's in a metal tube and that loves to conduct the cold), so i took the new tube (brand new) and put it on the radiator for about 2 minutes. well i went to pick it up and it was stuck to the radiator. it seems the glue in the tube expanded and leaqued out. after a bit of prying it came off (with some of the radiator's paint - something else to do this summer now). i then put a small drop on the scap paper and started dipping my parts into it that i was wantin to place onto the master.

nothing. no tacking, no sticking, nothing.

I pull the part from the knife tip and try another piece - nothing. i have been trying for about 20 minutes and gave up or i would have wanted to just trash it (the master too) as i have lost my cool with trying to build anything.

it's not cold in here as i am wearing jeans, slippers (no socks) and a tank top and the bench sits over a radiator so that space is heated.

i don't know what the issue is, but it looks like Ralph will have a lot more work to do. so much for hoping to have had this master done for realease this spring (i only say that as he's still working on the Inquisitor and has a bit more work to do yet).

hell, i was even going to start cutting out for the hulls of the Avenger SD and the Binder SD (as they both share the same hull) this afternoon.

just urks the hell out of me that i can't even get done simple stuff on masters to help out (to save time for others).

and before you ask about the why i am not using liquid cement, its simple, the parts are pieces of .010" thick plastic and are up to .080 wide and down to .020 and i only use the tip of the knife to snag the part for glueing as it is a simple release (well if the glue tacks it's a simple release).

I just called Ralph but there's no answer, so i may have left a slightly stressed out message on his answering machine.........

I could wait for even warmer weather in the summer, but i'm not going to sit on masters that long and on top of that, i'll be back to working on the house, so i won't have time to get wrapped up in the masters either (one reason why my other masters i have been working on aren't finished).

DennisH · Post by **DennisH** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:26 pm

Chris, what type of glue are you using?

Dennis

OdysseySlipways · Post by **OdysseySlipways** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:29 pm

super glue

photoguy · Post by **photoguy** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:11 pm

I saw a neat tool for this the other night at our local IPMS meeting. Guy took a wooden dowl, drove a sewing needle into one end of it, and used a cut-off wheel in his Dremel to take off half of the eye. He made a little pool of CA on a glass plate, used some really small tweezers to hold the part to his model, and then dipped the open eye into the glue (capilary action drew it into the eye) and then touched it to the joint between the two parts.

As long as the CA doesn't touch the tweezers (bonding the part to the tweezers instead of the model) it should hold the part just fine.

And yes, there is also a commercially available tool for this purpose, but his was cheap, simple and worked just fine!

OdysseySlipways · Post by **OdysseySlipways** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:22 pm

interesting tool. i thought at first as i was reading it that you were going to say he used the needle point to poke the part and then touch the part into the drip of glue. then when you said he cuts off the eyelt end, i thought he held the part in place in the cut eyelt space.

interesting idea though, but i just poke the piece with the tip of the knife, touch the glue then put it in place (that part always works, it's the damn glue just not wanting to do it's job).

i don't use glass, i use a piece of heavy paper, after a few drops worth 9and an hour or so later) the paper has soked through with some of the glue, sealing it to prevent more glue from being soaked in.

Umi_Ryuzuki · Post by **Umi_Ryuzuki** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:28 pm

Metal like resin often has oils on it from the forming process.
It is best to wash it, and the sand it with some 320 grit sand paper.

Do this, and you will probably find that the greebly will go on, and
stick instantly,... exactly where you don't want it.

OdysseySlipways · Post by **OdysseySlipways** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:35 pm

i'll give it a try (the tiny .010 strip might not like it, but i'll give it a go). it would be so great if this did work, would save soo much time and money if i could get it done (i know i have to do that with the gray plasti - something stuff)

Chacal · Post by **Chacal** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:22 pm

photoguy wrote:...and used a cut-off wheel in his Dremel to take off half of the eye...

Ouch!

Sluis Van Shipyards · Post by **Sluis Van Shipyards** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:52 pm

How old is the glue? I've had superglue that has been around a while not work. So I'm thinking maybe superglue can go bad or something.

Post by **TER-OR** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:08 pm

Yeah, sounds maybe like oils. I'd use some windex or 409 then rinse with water.

OdysseySlipways · Post by **OdysseySlipways** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:00 pm

i just took my one (home made) sander with some fine wet/dry sand paper on it and took several passes over the plastic strips (no longer shinny) and then took the hobby knife and dragged it over the srips i was adding the detail to until it was nice and dull (thinking maybe the plastic glue was creating a barrier of some sort).

well, none of that helped.

the parts are too small so i'm not going to try to use the liquid glue from the hobby shop (i can't hold the part still and at the same time dip a fine tip paint brush into the bottle and not nock it over and then glue the part).

the super glue was just recently bought.

i haven't heard back from Ralph, i'm guessing i was a bit too stressed sounding on the phone message i left him earlier - not like i wouldn't be much less now after trying to glue stuff again.

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:14 pm

What brand, what thickness, how much on the part? CA works best when there is just enough to film between parts, any more and you've got to hit it with accelerator to get it to stick.

As a note to any ^((#$^%** TSA employees reading this: CA accelerator is not restricted! It's less flammable than perfume, which you let aboard stowed lugged you %#&$*@ idiots!

*sigh* back to subject.

Part on needle, tiny prick of glue on part (or on placement) mash part on. Count to 10 or 20. Then 30. Curse when part falls off because you missed the area you'd put the glue on (which is directly under your left thumb now).

Post by **TER-OR** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:34 pm

I also like the hot cements like Tenax and the capillary applicator for styrene.

macfrank · Post by **macfrank** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:45 am

How dry is it in your workshop? CA needs some humidity to set up.

Master Bond CA wrote:High bond strengths with cyanoacrylates require only a very thin film of adhesive. The exact amount of adhesive to be used for bonding a specific area depends on the type of surface and the materials to be bonded. It is only necessary to apply adhesive to one surface. Generally, the best bond strength can be achieved by using the minimum amount of adhesive required to fill the joint. Pressure should be applied evenly until the adhesive sets up in order to ensure uniform bonding thickness. The thinner the adhesive film, the faster the cure and the stronger the bond. Cyanoacrylates cure by atmospheric humidity. Therefore the higher the humidity the faster the cure. Conversely, in low humidity environments, the rate of cure will be slower.

Chacal · Post by **Chacal** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:32 pm

Does it HAVE to be CA? If you use epoxy (5 min), and just a teeny amount of it per greeble, and they rest on a horizontal surface whilst the epoxy cures, capillarity will keep'em in place.

BTW have you tried a different bottle of CA? Maybe the heating-in-the-radiator 'broke' it (who knows? Chemicals...)

en'til Zog · Post by **en'til Zog** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:00 pm

If I'm trying to add plastic micro-greeblies to a plastic model I sometimes put some Tenax in a small toothpaste cap (stuck into a blob of modeling clay for stability) then impale the greebly on a pin or something, dip it's bottom into the Tenax, then promptly plunk it onto the model. If it doesn't look too firmly attached, then I can use the paint brush, capillary tube, whatever to add more at the base of the bit.

Also, I've put a lab cork (real cork with a hole through it) around the shaft of my Tenax applicator brush so it plugs the hole in the top of the bottle when the brush isn't actually in use. I go through a lot less Tenax that way.

Mr. Badwrench · Post by **Mr. Badwrench** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:26 am

Chris, CA definitely has a short lifespan. This is especially true for the Bob Smith stuff. I know you said you recently bought the CA, but who knows how long it was sitting on the store shelf before you bought it? I've had CA last anywhere between a month to a year from when I bought it, before it just stopped sticking to anything. (And it always gives up the ghost in the middle of the night, when I can't get any more). Try sticking a couple test pieces of scrap plastic together or something. Or stick a piece of plastic to your finger. If it doesn't stick to skin very well, it is dead for sure!

Chacal · Post by **Chacal** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:00 am

I keep a cheapie, drugstore-bought, blister-packaged 3g (that's like 0.1 Oz) bottle in my toolbox just for that event. You gotta remember to use the 'lil suckers before they die on you, but they're cheap(ish) and have other uses around the house, so every two or three months I get a new one.

ignatz · Post by **ignatz** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:10 pm

Yeah. It sounds like the CA went bad. You never know how long that stuff has been on the shelf or in the warehouse before you even bought it. I used to buy the bigger bottles but now only get the small bottles of CA glue.