Fiber Optics and Super-glue?

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Tue May 24, 2005 12:39 am

OK. I'm just beginning to work with fiber optics and I have already had my share of problems with super glue. However, I have been using it recently (with an accelerator) to secure fibers on my first attempt (TIE Interceptor Cockpit).

I read somewhere that someone else had done this "prior to his knowing better"

and lost a number of his fibers. Anyone know anything about this? The fibers that I have glued so far don't appear to be affected. Yeah, the outside of the fiber is a bit crazed, but it still trasmits light.

Should I anticipate any problems here? With such a tight spot as the interceptor cockpit, I really need to be able to secure fibers instantly.

seam-filler · Post by **seam-filler** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:57 am

Very thin fibres can be affected by the heat generated by the curing CA. This can vary from destroying the outer layer (which is what keeps the light within the fibre) down to melting the thing completely.

Marcal · Post by **Marcal** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:13 am

I tried Super Glue in my first attempt with FO and everything was a mess. All the fibers broken...

Finally I found to be useful this way: put the FO through the hole and keep it fixed to the model for the inner side with an adhesive tape. Use epoxy glue to fix the fibe to the model (once again for the inner side) where the FO meets the hole. Once it is dry, you can remove the tape and go on...

hope it helps

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:28 am

Thanks a bunch. And yup. After close examination and a little fiddling, I noticed that the CA had broken down the fiber somewhat - it's brittle. In fact I broke off one fiber. I'm using 0.5mm fibers. I think it wouldn't be so bad with a larger fiber and worse with a 0.25mm.

Another thing that I noticed: The fiber doesn't seem to be affected at all in places where I used the accelerator very quickly and the CA had little contact time with the fibers in it's liquid form (actually I'm using a CA gel here). If the CA is generating heat while curing, I wonder if the accelerator doesn't eliminate this problem, if used promptly.

I really don't see any way out. Some of the tiny pieces that I am working with need to be held quite tightly in very tight spaces. As I said, I need something that bonds instantly for this application. Normally I would use a 5 min epoxy, but I can't hold this 5 mins without slipping and clamps are out of the question in this tiny space. If I lose a little light transfer, it's better than just sticking a big LED in the cockpit.

It looks as if it will work ok IF I move quickly and don't put any tension on the fibers after the accelerator cures the CA. Some of the optics may dim a little, but with a superbright LED... We'll see, huh?

Thanks again for the help.

Mr. Badwrench · Post by **Mr. Badwrench** » Tue May 24, 2005 4:01 am

I've found that CA doesn't allow the fibers to flex. They become brittle at the glue joint, and the tension from the curved fiber trying to straighten itself out is enough to break it off. Some folks have recommended 5 minute epoxy, but as in your case, that wouldn't work for me. So I used hot glue. It doesn't get hot enough to damage the fiber, it works well for attaching single fibers or bundles, you can use it to attach fibers directly to an LED, and best of all it remains flexible, allowing the fiber to bend without breaking.

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Tue May 24, 2005 4:36 am

VERY interesting. How long does it take for hot glue to cure? Does it cure as hard/strong as superglue/accelerator? Sanding/painting properties?

Hmmm. I've been thinking of adding a glue gun to my arsenal.

Mr. Badwrench · Post by **Mr. Badwrench** » Tue May 24, 2005 5:40 am

No, it dries with the consistency of bathtub caulk. It dries fairly quickly, like within a few seconds. Not as fast as CA with accelerator, but pretty darned quick. I don't think it has a curing time, once it's dry, it's dry. As far as I know, it cannot be painted, or if paint does stick to it, it's a coincidence. I only use it to attach fibers from the inside. I'll leave the fibers about 1/8" protruding from the hole, hot glue it from the inside, and trim it off flush after all painting is complete.

Post by **TER-OR** » Tue May 24, 2005 7:46 am

Thanks, guys.

I've got a project I want to use fiberoptics with later this year, and I think you just headed off a major disaster. The hot glue might be a good option for a part of the project, and epoxy will make a major portion of the model, I think....

Marcal · Post by **Marcal** » Tue May 24, 2005 8:25 am

I use small plastic tubes (cutted from a 1 mL siringe) to pass the fiber through and keep them at place while the epoxy is curing. Have a look at my current project (click the link my bench) to see pictures of that to get the idea.

Anyway I havenÂ´t though about hot glue for this work. It seems good idea, I will try it out. Looks promising.

macfrank · Post by **macfrank** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:25 pm

I built a mask (to be used in an MRI) that has FO to present a target to the subject. The fibers go into a thin lucite plate, so with the fibers off, it's fairly transparent.

I first used CA to hold the fibers in their holes, and almost all eventually broke at the interface between the lucite and the fiber.

I ended up using 5 minute epoxy to hold the fibers in, and it's lasted for years. One trick I used was to fix the fiber in place with the smallest amount of CA that I could get away with (at the very tip), then use 5 minute epoxy as the permanent glue - especially around the area where the fiber comes out of the hole.

Hot glue gets pretty hot, but in small blobs it should cool off quickly enough to avoid damaging the fibers. Make sure that the plastic and fiber are clean and free from oils, though.

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:18 pm

Excellent advise and comments.
Quality help is hard to find. No response on RPF.

Marcal · Post by **Marcal** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:20 pm

Sorry, RPF??? WhatÂ´s that???

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:49 pm

Replica Prop Forum.

http://www.rpf.invisionzone.com/

TONS of info, but I'm feeling like they may be a bit elitist. Don't bother with a basic modeling question, uncomfortable silence follows.

...just my recent opinion. As stated above, they've snubbed this topic completely, so far.

they do have some of the best modelers/scratchbuilders in the world participating in this forum and has only just recently began to accept members again. posting was completely closed to the public until just recently.

Marcal · Post by **Marcal** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:55 pm

I see...

A bit disapointing, isn't it???

But never mind, at least I'm the best Star Trek modeler in my home... (my wife is asking me every time if C3PO and Data were done in the same factory...

)

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Tue May 24, 2005 4:33 pm

Don't get me wrong. I love the RPF. I have amassed large quantities of info just lurking around that forum - wishing all along that I could post. Finally, they re-open registration for new members and I really have not gotten the response that I was expecting. Those are my unrealistic expectations to deal with.

I can kinda understand. These are the "top crust" of the studio replica modelers. Most of your ultimate garage kits? the creators are likely long-time members. Alfred Wong - SMT's Studio Scale B-wing, AT-AT, Snowspeeder. Captain Cardboard and Mike Salzo - Studio Scale X-wing. SWPROPMAKER - currently offering a fantastic studioscale TIE l/n and working on an interceptor and y-wing. Tim Ketzer and Frank Kerney - masters of the 32" studio scale Falcon. ALL LONG TERM MEMBERS.

I guess it's kinda annoying when you are used to rubbing elbows with the masters and some yahoo pipes in with "superglue and fiber optics?" But hey, was Alfred Wong born with the knowledge that superglue adversely affects optic fiber?

Well, it is Alfred Wong. maybe he was

Who are these people, you may ask?

We-he-he-ell. Look at these:

http://www.ketzer.com/
http://www.alfredsmind.ca/index.htm

just a taste of the calibre modeler found there. not saying by any means that there are not excellent modelers here and i do occasionally see posts by members here who are regularly posting at RPF. But I've seen things on that forum that that made my brain ache with sheer amazement, awe and admittedly - jealousy. Good God those guys can scratchbuild anything. I can hardly scratch my own a$$

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Tue May 24, 2005 5:20 pm

Just a quick note on hot glue, it is basically plastic that melts safely.
It sticks to things by 'flowing' into the texture of it and locking in place. Itâ€™s not like a chemical bond. It's just groves and lips and ruff points that have gotten the glue into it so it can grip it.

You can always use JB weld or epoxy putty to secure your fibers in place.

Codefox · Post by **Codefox** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:10 am

Hmm, reading this I'm now worried about the FO I secured using super glue. Would you all advise that I go ahead and redrill the FO back out of the holes I put them in and then redo them with epoxy? I can see where they're stiff slightly where they're glued. Are they likely to just start breaking after the model has been assembled?

Marcal · Post by **Marcal** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:46 am

I would definitively do so, better now than when you cannot undo it. When I first fix my very first FO with super glue and I saw what happens I redid it again with epoxy at once.

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Wed May 25, 2005 9:16 am

I've simply done too much too start over. Tyring to sand down all that superglue in the concave tie interior is more that I was bargaining for. Again, I worked pretty fast with the accelerator and there are only a few sections where the fiber seems really damaged. I may redo those highly damaged few, but mostly I am just going back and covering with a fine layer of epoxy. Thats should hold them.

NEXT TIME WE'LL ALL KNOW BETTER. I'm glad this thread has gone this far. Superglue is so easy to use and so fast - a drop of accelerator and you are are on tho the next thing. I wouldn't be suprised if this is a fairly common mistake for beginners.

Codefox · Post by **Codefox** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:27 pm

Fortunately I hadn't done much...and some of the FO had already snapped as of this morning. It was really just the annoyance factor of doing the same thing I just did yesterday. I was ready to move on. Ah well, no biggie. Live and learn!

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:01 pm

Yup, after much thought, I've settled on the same idea. I'm pulling all of the fibers and starting over. None of my fibers have broken other than the one I pulled on, but still... I'll feel stupid when it's all together and the lights start going out. I'd probably be able to hear the fibers breaking in my sleep.

Ping!
I awake with a start.
"I knew I should have replaced those fibers"

Nope, don't want to do that. It'll be a pain to sand all that superglue, but peace of mind is invaluable.

Isn't there some kind of solvent that breaks down superglue? That would make this easier.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:04 pm

You don't have uncure

And you glued your fingers, ouch

Yes there is uncure. It is thin and runny and I think it softens resin, I had to get some parts off a resin piece after I decided they needed to be inset to look correct. . .still a messy procedure but I didn't need the grinder.

Codefox · Post by **Codefox** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:25 pm

Fortunately all my superglue was on the inside. I just picked 30 new windows and made new holes. Once I paint the model, those other holes will be gone since they're already filled with fiber optic

macfrank · Post by **macfrank** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:27 pm

SGluedMyFingers wrote:
Isn't there some kind of solvent that breaks down superglue? That would make this easier.

Yeah, Acetone. BUT straight Acetone will damage styrene, and may even damage plastic fibers. A safer option would be nail polish remover (make sure that it contains Acetone!) the lower concentration of Acetone will be less damaging to the plastic.... but it will still cause some damage and will make clear plastic turn cloudy.

Frank

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:44 pm

Hmm very interesting. Certainly the words "damage" in the same sentence as "resin" or "styrene" makes me nervous, but it's worth a test on a scrap piece of styrene to ascertain the damage. Surely the Mrs. has some polish remover around here somewhere.

And yep, I glued my fingers together a few weeks back

- no "uncure" - not pretty. My answer at the time was a razor blade - still waiting for my fingerprint to come back. LOL.

macfrank · Post by **macfrank** » Wed May 25, 2005 6:40 pm

SGluedMyFingers wrote: And yep, I glued my fingers together a few weeks back :shock: - no "uncure" - not pretty. My answer at the time was a razor blade - still waiting for my fingerprint to come back. LOL.

Here's my superglue disaster, thanks to Google for remembering it.

SGluedMyFingers · Post by **SGluedMyFingers** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:01 pm

OMG thanks I needed a good laugh.

en'til Zog · Post by **en'til Zog** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:02 am

For something even more flexible and gentle on the FO - maybe Silicon Seal / Bathtub Caulk? The black kind would even help shield against light leaks.

And yes, I've used superglue.... and lost.

**sigh**

Codefox · Post by **Codefox** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:23 am

Silicon...now there's a good idea 8)

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:10 am

BTW Kirk gave the electronics lecture at Wonderfest, he suggested the silcon calk to tack down wires inside the model. . .I have the CD with his handout, mayber there are more ideas on there. Keep an eye out for the Wonderfest picture posting, handouts get posted there too.