Super Noob Finishing Runthrough

[SGluedMyFingers]

O.K. I'm going to go super noob here. And yes, I've covered this finishing forum several times and still have basic questions that I couldn't find specific answers to.

Paint and weathering scares the crap outta me for a million reasons (color blindness being a huge deterrent). I've built a lot of models as a kid, but never got into detailed painting and weathering. I slapped on a little enamel and was done. Now I'm doing this as an adult and hoping for adult results. So I want to run a few things by you guys. I've been avoiding advanced painting and weathering to the point that I have five complete yet unpainted models here and the time has come to give this a go. I've experimented with a handful of techniques like enamel washes over laquer glosscaots and such, but never all of this at the same time.

My first action a few years back was to run out and buy a large stock of enamel colors. It's what I'm used to and had been having problems with my airbrush using acrylics. But my main concern has been screwing up my weathering. So I figured that weathering with acrylics over a laquer clearcoat would be the way to go because if I messed up, it would be easy to clean up and start over without repainting the enamel basecoat. This worked well with my last paint experiment, just a simple snap x-wing, as I screwed up the Red Leader blast mark three times. The acryllic came right off. I finally got it right. But I didn't really try an acrylic panel line wash as the lines are raised. I just slopped a little thinned out black in a few recesses. I'm pretty happy with it for a paint test. But now I want to get down to real weathering.

(Sigh) All that to get here, an advanced weathering job. Please be patient. This post could be long with many questions. I will highlight in bold my major questions so that they don't get lost in my wordiness.

I have just finished all of my enamel basecoat and various panels on a Millenium Falcon. I did use a black undercoat and light shading of Camo Gray to get some shadowing effect. I'm waiting a few weeks to let the enamel outgas. Then I plan to lay down a good laquer clearcoat because I have several cans of the stuff.

Question 1: I have some Future. Is there really any advantage to using Future as opposed to Laquer Gloss when going over enamel? Or is Future really just advantageous for going over an acryllic basecoat because laquer will eat up the acrylic? I've pretty much decided to use the laquer reagrdless because I have heard some speak of having trouble getting used to spraying Future and I already have several cans of laquer clear. I'd rather save that for later experimentation. I just thought I would throw that question out there.

Question 2: Regarding panel line washing with acrylic vs. oils. What's the real pros and cons here? Again, I'm pretty much settled on weathering with acrylic because I already have a small handful of bottles of acrylics in weathering colors to work with and no oil. And again the easy clean up of a messed up acrylic paint job is inticing at this point. And also, I'm not too comfortable with oil because it usually needs to be custom mixed - not good for someone who is color blind when you can buy a bottle that tells you exactly what color it is. But if I am going to get far superior results with oils, then I might could be swayed into risking some funky colored panel line washing. How easy would the clean up be with oils if I messed something up?

Question 3: I've already read a lot about this, but it hasn't been real clear and I want to be sure about all of it. Is water the best thinner to use for an acryllic wash? And a little dishsoap to ease the surface tension? Or is there something that will work better like mineral spirits, denatured alcohol or windex? If not is there anything that I should look out for with using the dishsoap? Can anyone recommend a specific type or brand?

Now I will be at the point to airbrush/brush/drybrush all of my acryllic blast marks and do a little sparce weathering like fainter rust/grunge streaks and the grungy marks coming off the engine exhausts. I've played with my airbrush and drybrushing enough to have no questions here. And if I mess up, it comes off with a little alchol. No problems here.

Now on to the pastels, which I have bought but never used.

Question 4: Will pastels go on better with a dullcoat vs a clearcoat? I would think yes, from what I've read and understood. The pastels need something to cling to.

Now you may see my delimna. From what I understand, a laquer dullcoat (or any laquer coat) over an acrylic wash and slight acrylic airbrushing is going to be a big no-no. So....

Question 5: Can I use lightly built up layers of laquer dullcoat over acrylic and pastel without great risk? If I'm very careful, is this possible? Or am I hoping for too much? Should I resign myself to buying some acryl flat to airbrush on at this stage? And forget about the six cans of laquer dullcoat that I have and save them for a more appropriate and less weathered build?

And finally....

Question 6: How careful must I be sealing pastels? Are the pastels going to stick pretty well? Or are they going to blow all over the place and require several careful and light coverings of acryl flat or laquer dullcoat?

I know this is a lot. And it may be pretty basic to many of you. I've gotten pretty good at building and making modifications. I did a lot of this as a kid. But I have put off the hard-core weathering and paint out of pure fear. Like I said, I have five fully complete models that I put a lot of work into with modifications, clean-up, seam filling and such. They are primered and ready. But I'd hate to screw it all up now. I appreciate any one who has taken the time to read all of this and would like to thank anyone, in advance, who will take the time to ease my mind by answering some of these basic questions. A lot of this basic information seems to get lost in the stickied sections of the finishing forum for all the more advanced questions and comments. I've read them over and over. And I still had these questions. I hope that it isn't too bothersome.

And maybe some other finishing noobs out there will learn something from a all-in-one crash course in advanced paint and weathering.

Final sidenote: As I've spent time covering this section of the forum, I've pretty much figured out that acrylic would have been the way to go from the start. But have all this Enamel and Laquer Clear. No sense in throwing it out. When It's mostly used up, I'll likely make the switch.

Thanks again,

SGMF

[DasPhule]

Question #1- Future isn't better or worse than enamel, it's just different. The key is to use a different type of clear than what you intend to do the wash with so that when you wipe it with thinner to remove the wash it won't remove the paint underneath. If you intend to do a wash using any lacquer or enamel or oil paints, use Future after letting lacquers and enamels dry for at least 3 days to avoid their outgassing as they dry ( the source of cracking of acrylic clear coats), a week is best. If you intend to do a wash using water colors or acrylics or water soluble inks, use lacquer or enamel clear gloss. Lacquer and enamel clears, when applied in multiple mist coats, will not damage acrylic paints if they're dry. Use ammonia at any point to remove or clean up Future, but keep it away from Future finishes you intend to keep because it eats it up. When airbrushing Future, spray it unthinned, directly out of the bottle. Clean the airbrush with ammonia. Tamiya spray paints and clears are NOT acrylic, they're mega hot lacquers thinned with Xylene or something like it. Whatever it is, it's like lava; it's hot stuff! Puddle them at your peril, they will crack the toughest paint if not misted on in multiple coats.

Question #2- If your Future clear coat is thick enough (usually 2-4 thin coats) the oils will come off easily using naptha, turpentine, or mineral spirits. I prefer naptha because it dries really fast. I use it to make the actual wash with oils, then later use it wipe off excess. It cracks plastic, so be careful to coat liberally with Future if using it. Lacquer thinner eats through everything, so avoid it except for clean up of tools. I prefer oils for washes because I like the way they flow and settle. I've tried acrylics, but don't like the surface tension fight and the blotchy drying. Enamels work in a pinch, but tend to break up and puddle up unevenly when thinned too much. To each his own, use whatever you feel comfortable with at first, or practice both on a scrap model and see which you like best. I only use black, Payne's grey, and occasionally burnt umber for washes, custom mixed wash colors are rarely required.

Question #3- Tamiya thinner is rebottled rubbing alcohol, all the others are various mixes of branded solvents with flow aids and brush conditioners. I use denatured alcohol because it cleans and thins better (it's stronger than rubbing alcohol which is diluted). As for the soap, most dish soaps work well to reduce surface tension, I've used Palmolive for years with acrylics and it works well. Add a drop to the cup of thinned wash solution, mix, and test, adding more as needed until it flows. If you have access to it, or can ask for it, ask a print press operator for some fountain solution, it's the best flow aid you can get. One drop will make an ounce of paint flow like no other additive you'll find. Tap water isn't clean, it has additives. Use distilled water if possible, but tap water is cheap and convenient.

Question #4 AND #5- Obviously, as you surmise, pastels stick better to flat coats. Lacquer clear over anything is fine as long as you don't put it on so thick that it eats through the base coats before it can dry. Lacquers are meant to be put on thin and built up so that they can dry fast. Put them on thick and they just sit there wet trying to dry until they eat through to the plastic. When using ALL clears, mist coats are the key. Hold the can or airbrush well away from the model when spraying. If it looks soaking, dripping wet when you're done, it's got WAY too much on it. Thick coats are the source of cracking and bleeding. When using Future for clear coats, mist as usual and keep an eye open for pooling and runs. Wipe them off before they gel using a brush. Try to leave as few brushmarks as possible when doing so, then reapply Future to smooth it out.

Question #6- Sealing pastels is tricky. Some folks mist coat them with clears of various sorts, some folks wait until the very last step to apply them. They look best IMHO when done last and left uncoated, that way they look like the dust that they are meant to be. I've heard hairspray works if misted on, but really all it is is a lacquer clear so it's no big surprise that it would work. Key to pastel usage is to remember that once they're applied, you can't touch them or it'll leave a fingerprint. They'll also show fingerprints that weren't cleaned off before you put them on the model, just like on that sheep show CSI when they dust for prints. Cleaning the finish with some alcohol before applying the pastels will save you from CSI syndrome, just go easy so you don't hurt the paint finish by accident. Models attached to bases are your best targets for pastels so you won't have to touch the model.

If you like enamels and lacquers, I'd stick with them. They blend and bleed for killer effects and filters, acrylics don't. They just sit there and build up over each other making the paint layers thick. I hate acrylics and only use them occasionally, and I'm puzzled by all who like them just for the "easy clean up with only water" and the "non-toxic" dealeo. ALL PAINTS ARE ALL TOXIC IF INHALED, acrylics are only non-toxic to drink and eat. Acrylics do not come out of your lungs when inhaled, they stay there forever because they're plastic. Solvents are oils and get absorbed and then get metabolized to destroy internal organs other than lungs, acrylics don't. So no, they aren't safer, just different. Show me 20 models painted with various paints and I'll pick the acrylics out pretty much every time. Acrylics are for painting details like buttons in cockpits, landscapes, diorama groundwork, ceramics, and clown portraits IMO. Once you figure out how to use Future, the rest is easy. I clear coat over Future with Testors and Floquil all the time, I just have to remember to mist them on. But hey, try it all and figure out what works best for you. Experiment with all of them so YOU know what they do, you might find you like acrylics. I still won't, but it's your model not mine!

Most of all, have fun!

Erin
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[DasPhule]

Oops, double post. Slow server got me!

Erin
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[SGluedMyFingers]

THANK YOU DasPhule. That helps to clear up the fogginess I was left with going over and over this forum. As I said, the basics get a little lost in some of the sticked sections.

Plus I needed a little reassurance.

That helps me tremendously. But if anyone else wants to put in their thoughts, to my questions, please do so.

[SGluedMyFingers]

Oh, one final question. If I use denatured alcohol for a acrylic wash, do I really need soap? Does DNA have the same/similar surface tension as H2O?

[TER-OR]

OK, forget the idea of an "acrylic wash." What acrylics do is glaze. You don't remove them like a wash. Oils you can remove without any thinner if you use them for panel lines over gloss. Just use a cotton swab or soft cloth. Enamels you'll probably need to use thinner.

While I agree with Erin about some aspects of acrylics, I disagree as well. I exclusively use acrylics except for metallics. While the color coats don't bite into previous coats, I find it easy to feather and weather and blend shades.

Read the threads about washes. I've been using watercolors and occasionally pastel dust as washes and inks in Future as glazes for a while now, and really there's no effect like an ink-in-Future glaze. Perhaps transparent enamels, but I'll put money on the Future.

I greatly prefer to use watercolors as washes because a) they're transperent, b) they're water-soluble c) they're fast. They react more like oils than anything else, but are very easy to remove if you over-apply.

I'm trying to clarify techniques - wash can be removed, glaze cannot. "Sludge-wash" is a glaze technique.

[SGluedMyFingers]

Completely understood. I've certainly read your contributions to this part of the forum. I'm just trying to use what I already have, which I bought out of ignorance, inexperience and poor advice, to the best of it's ability.

Effect painting and weathering is still my huge nemesis. I've gained confidence in all areas except that. And I lack confidence to the point that I am almost frozen. I just have to step out there. I have to accept the fact that I AM going to screw this up a few times. Everyone does it.

It just going to suck that being the last step in a lot of work to get a model to primer and basecoat. Especially for a perfectionist like me.

So far this model looks great. I gotten some great effects from preshading, various paint chipping techniques and blending (all which I learned here and perfected from previous projects). But I've put a lot into this one and haven't tried these techniques yet with the materials that I have obtianed. Ugh the thought of screwing it up now.

And I'm not throwing out what I've already invested in. I've gotten great advice and this forum has given me a lot of knowledge. Others have made it work and so will I. Just want to make sure I have all my ducks in their proper rows.

Thanks Ter-or.

[TER-OR]

One thing to remember, less is often more with weathering. One of our guys here does great WW2 and modern armor, but when he switches to other subjects he tends to weather the same way. We're working on him! It's hard to fight the urge to do more and more.

If you've pre-shaded, done some chips and such I'd look where you might get water or air moving and carrying grease and grit. Add that with your oils, very light - usually after dullcoat - and then step back for a good look. Even take pictures with your digital camera, sometimes looking at them on the screen shows things you don't see with the Mk. I eyeball.

Another key - DON'T USE BLACK. Dark gray, or brown/black is more natural. Very few things are black and the contrast becomes much too high.

[SGluedMyFingers]

...Another key - DON'T USE BLACK. Dark gray, or brown/black is more natural. Very few things are black and the contrast becomes much too high.

Oh no, wouldn't do that. Didn't even use black on the engine exhaust grills - mixed Model Master Navy Gray with a few drops of Neutral Grey and honestly it's a little too "black" for the scale. I'm going to weather with mixtures of Polly Scale Grimy black, Rust and maybe a little Oily Black with a little Neutral Grey and Brown mixed in to tone those down and mix it up. And I'll probably mix in a little of my basecolor, Camo Grey, for the wash ("glaze", sorry). I'll play around with it. That's why I chose acrylic in the first place.

It's the laquer clear coats that I was most worried about. I had bought several cans of the stuff and want to go ahead and use it.

I don't have any artists oils. But I plan work my way into that eventually. I may play around with your pastel/future wash ("glaze", sorry again ) some on this as well. I've got almost all of the Tamiya and Gunze pastel sets - plenty of color to work with in pastels. Just havent tried them yet. Too chicken.

Like I said, I've bought these acrylic weathering colors and I'm going to try to use them for now. I'm still a little broke from the holidays and just sprung for one of those Sotar 2020s that are on sale at Badger.com. I think this new airbrush will give me a little more confidence as well. It should produce much finer lines than my recently grumpy Paasche VL.

Again guys, Thanks. I feel much more confident about this.

If I can get this last nemesis beat down, I think that I may be able to start calling myself a real modeler.

[TER-OR]

The Tamiya and Gunze pastels are nice.

And Polyscale's Grimy Black is purt-near my favorite color!
Paint your instrument panel with that, give it an ink-future glaze, dullcoat and quick drybrush. That easy.

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Acrylics are for painting details like buttons in cockpits, landscapes, diorama groundwork, ceramics, and clown portraits IMO.

That's the funniest thing I've read today.

Kenny