Foam construction...

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Not in Southern California and at least not with blue/pink foam, or anything similar.

The blue and pink foam that I have I got from a friend back in Astronomy; they bought several sheets to insulate some electronics, and they were "imported" from out of state.

How do houses keep the cool air from migrating to the hot air?
No wonder California has energy issues... It wouldn't take as
much energy to keep a building cool if they insulated the walls
to keep the cool air in.

they likely use the standard insulation material used in home construction, fiberglass blankets. Its cheaper, comes in long rolls that are easy to install and make your hands itch like crazy is you don't wear gloves.

There are MANY forms of insulation for buildings, don't assume they use nothing at all just because they don't use one of the more obscure (and expensive) materials.

Do you mean you guys wrap the house in fiberglass? I guess that'd work, but it would be a pain in the rear.

These sheets go on the outside of the chipboard wall, underneath the housewrap. Then, the brick or vinyl siding is applied. An outside wall is as follows:

drywall ->studs->chipboard->pink or blue sheets of styrofoam insulation->housewrap->brick or vinyl

In Southern California, you guys may use some other type of foam sheets. But, there almost has to be something on the outside of that chipboard wall to keep the hot air in OR out (again, assuming you didn't mean they wrapped the thing in glass).

You may just drive by a new housing development and see what they're doing or just ask one of the guys there. They can tell you.

Kenny

[Voyager-74656]

Out here on the west coast area, they acutally use styrofoam ( the white stuff like what your cups are made of ) for the underlying of the stucco...

At least here in Az they do


And by the way, thanks to information from Michael ( Feyman Shipyards ) here's an alternative that may possibly work as well


http://www.kitkraft.biz/_search.php?page=1&q=Balsafoam

[macfrank]

Do you mean you guys wrap the house in fiberglass? I guess that'd work, but it would be a pain in the rear.


In Southern California, you guys may use some other type of foam sheets. But, there almost has to be something on the outside of that chipboard wall to keep the hot air in OR out (again, assuming you didn't mean they wrapped the thing in glass).

You may just drive by a new housing development and see what they're doing or just ask one of the guys there. They can tell you.

Kenny

Kenny,
The insulation used are sheets of (encased) fiberglass. Honest. They go in between the walls and the exteriors are just stucco or similar over the wood sheets.

drywall ->studs->fiberglass insulation->4 x 8 plywood sheets->some sort of sealant>stucco or siding. The sealant and the stucco could be the same product, actually.

You typically can't use bricks here without earthquake reinforcement, or you use cinder blocks (also with reinforcement). Older forms of insulation used in Southern California were treated wood pulp (basically mashed up and treated old newspaper) and expanding foam. The fiberglass sheets are cheap and pretty easy to use.
I've never seen blue or pink insulation foam used in this area, and asking at any home builder store would just be greeted with "Huh? You mean fiberglass?"

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Do you mean you guys wrap the house in fiberglass? I guess that'd work, but it would be a pain in the rear.


In Southern California, you guys may use some other type of foam sheets. But, there almost has to be something on the outside of that chipboard wall to keep the hot air in OR out (again, assuming you didn't mean they wrapped the thing in glass).

You may just drive by a new housing development and see what they're doing or just ask one of the guys there. They can tell you.

Kenny

Kenny,
The insulation used are sheets of (encased) fiberglass. Honest. They go in between the walls and the exteriors are just stucco or similar over the wood sheets.

drywall ->studs->fiberglass insulation->4 x 8 plywood sheets->some sort of sealant>stucco or siding. The sealant and the stucco could be the same product, actually.

You typically can't use bricks here without earthquake reinforcement, or you use cinder blocks (also with reinforcement). Older forms of insulation used in Southern California were treated wood pulp (basically mashed up and treated old newspaper) and expanding foam. The fiberglass sheets are cheap and pretty easy to use.
I've never seen blue or pink insulation foam used in this area, and asking at any home builder store would just be greeted with "Huh? You mean fiberglass?"

I use thed the blown cellulose stuff. It's pretty awesome. But, it was a bear to clean up afterwards. I didn't mention it earlier, because not all localities require outside walls to have the airspace insulated.

I did find something "blueish" being used outside. It's shown here as "Insulated foam sheathing" according to the California energy commission.

http://www.energyvideos.com/bldvid.php?P=CA&A=5&S=rfi

They are polyisocyanurate sheets. Wikipedia states they are essentially improved polyurethane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate

Some of the Lowe's in southern California do stock them. I picked a couple of random 90000-series zip codes and shopped them.

The good news is Lowe's in Los Angeles absolutely do sell polystyrene foam sheets. Here is the link:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=p ... lpage=none

They're not exterior, but they will definitely do the job nicely Cali residents.

I hope this helps.
Kenny

[macfrank]

The good news is Lowe's in Los Angeles absolutely do sell polystyrene foam sheets. Here is the link:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=p ... lpage=none

I checked and it's mail order only, so not in store. I'm sure there are parts of California (North of SF for sure, and all mountain regions) that have different insulation types (including foam) available, but not in Southern California, unless it's an import or in only 1 or 2 stores. It's possible that building regs have expanded to mandate different insulation types, but I've watched a handful of apartment buildings going up within 2 - 3 miles of here, and they've all used rolls of fiberglass insulation (by the truckload!).

[Lt. Z0mBe]

The good news is Lowe's in Los Angeles absolutely do sell polystyrene foam sheets. Here is the link:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=p ... lpage=none

I checked and it's mail order only, so not in store. I'm sure there are parts of California (North of SF for sure, and all mountain regions) that have different insulation types (including foam) available, but not in Southern California, unless it's an import or in only 1 or 2 stores. It's possible that building regs have expanded to mandate different insulation types, but I've watched a handful of apartment buildings going up within 2 - 3 miles of here, and they've all used rolls of fiberglass insulation (by the truckload!).

Oh yeah, those are not exterior stuff. I don't know what they're for (refrigeration?). You guys can at least get something down south.

Kenny

[chasd25]

Nope, General Plastics still seems to be in business...
http://www.generalplastics.com/
Your local distributor may be a different story...

Great stuff, we've got a ton of it at our shop for model making. We buy the 7lb, and 12 lb in 4" or 6" thick sheets, and occasionally 24" x" 24" x 36" blocks.

[DaveVan]

The best foam I've used is Balsa Foam....but it is the most costly too. For smaller projects it is the best choice IMHO. Some art store carry it.
http://www.americanfoamtech.com/balsafo ... tideas.asp

[Shinnentai]

I did find something "blueish" being used outside. It's shown here as "Insulated foam sheathing" according to the California energy commission.

http://www.energyvideos.com/bldvid.php?P=CA&A=5&S=rfi

They are polyisocyanurate sheets. Wikipedia states they are essentially improved polyurethane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate

Some of the Lowe's in southern California do stock them. I picked a couple of random 90000-series zip codes and shopped them.

They sell this stuff at the Home Depot near me (in San Diego). It's no good for modeling. It's not rigid, but rather squishy/flexible, kind of like a higher density version of the HDPE foam that pool toys are made of.

The local craft stores sell a type of extruded polystyrene foam for floral work. It's rigid, but it's got a much larger cell size than the insulation stuff. The individual cells are around 1-2mm on average, so it's really only OK for big, generalized shapes. It's also maybe two or three times the price of insulation foam.

[Lt. Z0mBe]

I did find something "blueish" being used outside. It's shown here as "Insulated foam sheathing" according to the California energy commission.

http://www.energyvideos.com/bldvid.php?P=CA&A=5&S=rfi

They are polyisocyanurate sheets. Wikipedia states they are essentially improved polyurethane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate

Some of the Lowe's in southern California do stock them. I picked a couple of random 90000-series zip codes and shopped them.

The local craft stores sell a type of extruded polystyrene foam for floral work. It's rigid, but it's got a much larger cell size than the insulation stuff. The individual cells are around 1-2mm on average, so it's really only OK for big, generalized shapes. It's also maybe two or three times the price of insulation foam

You may be able to wrap the blueish stuff in Aves, just like the large cell white styrene foam. The same goes for the uber large styrene stuff you've found. I snag the thin sheets of styrene foam from packages (hey, foam's foam ). They're large cell too, almost resembling beads.

Heck, if nothing else, try using the stuff for Aves draping if you can after sculpting it.

Kenny

[tonyG2]

Question for UK availbility of insulation foam. My local branch of B&Q stocks varying thicknesses of an insulation material called Jablite. Referred to as a "low lamba EPS".

Anyone know if this will be suitable for modelling purposes.

[radiofrog]

The good news is Lowe's in Los Angeles absolutely do sell polystyrene foam sheets. Here is the link:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=p ... lpage=none

I checked those out yesterday at Lowe's here in Texas. Edge-on they looked like they were "big bubble" type styrofoam, not good, dense carving stuff.

[Shinnentai]

You may be able to wrap the blueish stuff in Aves, just like the large cell white styrene foam.

The sheets are foil clad on the flats, and that's the source of the blue blue you're seeing in the vid. The foam itself is actually a sort of pale buttermilk yellow color.

The stuff's no good for carving. It's got too much squish. Not squishy like bead foam. It's hard to describe: something like a denser kind of Nerf foam, maybe.

The same goes for the uber large styrene stuff you've found. I snag the thin sheets of styrene foam from packages (hey, foam's foam ). They're large cell too, almost resembling beads.

Heck, if nothing else, try using the stuff for Aves draping if you can after sculpting it.

The problem is that the large cell structure makes edges and surfaces very ragged, even when cut cleanly, which makes it hard to do even moderately complex shapes. After a certain point, the texture starts to muddle topography. It's good for bulk and for simple shapes, but that's all, even if you're cladding it in sheet or draping it with Aves. Ahh, in Star Trek terms, you could carve a basic Refit secondary hull shape with it, but not a saucer or nacelle.

Or to put it another way, suppose you're building a miniature castle for a tabletop game. With pink/blue foam you can carve the masonry, windowsills, butresses etc. out of the foam itself. With the floral stuff (it comes in green and white) the foam would just be the underlying primitive shapes, and you'd have to sculpt or glue everything else on top of it.

Bead foam doesn't have this problem so much, as the beads are solid, and can be sectioned smoothly with sharp enough tools. Though trying to sand bead foam (to form compound curves) doesn't work in my experience, so it's still more limited than the blue/pink stuff.

It can definitely be used, but it has limits. Using a hot wire tool helps a lot, as it kind of smears the cell edges into a smoother surface, but not everything can be carved that way.

[radiofrog]

Okay, I think I finally found the good stuff at Lowe's here. It was in the section of the store near the plywood. Item #: 15348 - about $9.50 for 4' x 8' x .5"

I also checked a local contractor's distributor and found the extruded Urethane, but it was ~$400.00 for a big sheet.

Some local train hobby guys said the blue stuff from Lowe's works great for their landscaping. And it's cheap enough for me to just experiment without cringing over every square inch. Now if only I could find some really cheap AVES.

Hey, has anyone here ever tried heating and draping thin Sintra like you would uncured Apoxie-Sculpt sheets? (directed mostly at you, Joseph, since you brought it up... and do you have a pic of that Warhawk?)

(Sintra Link again: http://www.solarbotics.net/starting/200 ... intra.html)

[Joseph C. Brown]

Have I tried heating Sintra? Umm... no. And I'd really strongly advise against it!

Warning! Safety Lecture!

I know that we all use common sense when it comes to dangerous chemicals - we're modelers, we know what we're doing, right? Doing the 'heat small pieces by submerging in very hot water' trick is likely safe enough.

But, heating it, out in the open, with a hot air gun, or an oven, or a carefully-controlled torch all are essentially bad plans.

Really bad plans!

Any PVC type material, mistreated, can produce fumes and the end result is potentially not pretty - it can make you wish you were dead. Try Googling pvc+fumes and judge for yourself. Do it if you wish and call me a paranoid safety geek. I'll stick to wet-sanding and hand-forming with pressure, thanks.

----

Anyways, back to the modeling! The only Warhawk pics that I have on the 'net are over on Cult's site:
http://culttvman.com/joe_brown_s_warhawk.html
Now that the model is getting on to be 8 years old, I can say that Sintra is showing that it is durable and stable as a construction material, and despite the layers and layers of Future and Dullcoat on the model, it still looks way cool!

[Antenociti]

Question for UK availbility of insulation foam. My local branch of B&Q stocks varying thicknesses of an insulation material called Jablite. Referred to as a "low lamba EPS".

Anyone know if this will be suitable for modelling purposes.

probably OK, but you're better off with some floormate 200-x or harder from Panel Systems (or depending how much you need..from me! We get it in by the pallet load, depron, sintra and rohacell too).

panel system also do a softer foam called "craftfoam" its about 25kg/m3... personally i never use anything lower than 32kg/m3 but thats because people tend to throw wargames scenery about...so the sturdier the better.

4Dmodelshop down in london has some superb 52kg/m3 sheets of a styrofoam from 1mm up to 10mm, and it is superb.

I cant find out what it is (or we would stock it) but it is lovely stuff, very smooth, cuts easily and can be sanded down to at least 1200 grit smooth.

It's nice stuff.

[radiofrog]

I know that we all use common sense when it comes to dangerous chemicals - we're modelers, we know what we're doing, right?

Speak for yourself, I'm still a noob idiot in this stuff. Most of my construction experience has been with wood and metal. Plastic is an exciting new world for me (and sure, potentially lethal, but isn't that part of the fun? ).

And anyway, I was referring to heating it in water (I may be an idiot, but I'm not stupid. ), but I didn't know how pliable that would make it.

Well, back to my bleach-ammonia experiment.