Scratchbuilding transforming models?

[kugar13]

Hey guys/gals,

Anyone know of any good books, online tutorials, sites and such on how to scratch build models that transform? Specifically Veritech-like fighters from Robotech (transform from jet to robot)? I've done a search online with no luck.


Thanks!

[Thom]

I don't know of any books. The best way is to look for on-line articles or in hobby magazines, or other hobby sites. This one is on Macross World Forums and has some nice detailed pictures. http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.p ... opic=31739 You may have to join first to see them, but it doesn't cost anything.

I think the easiest way is to use pollycaps, where you pull the separate parts of the model apart using posts and holes, and then push it back together in its alternate configuration. http://www.hlj.com/product/WAVOP-383

And embedding rare-earth magnets where the model's separate pieces come together can help hold them in place between transformations. http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D63

Ask around for more tips and tricks and you're bound to get a heap of answers!

[kugar13]

Thom,

WOW! Amazing site and wonderful advice. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply to my inquiry.

Pollycaps are a brilliant suggestion! Love the magnet idea as well!

Thank you!!!

Kugar

[Wug]

Hi kugar13,

You'll have a simpler and happier life if you build the model fixed pose. If you want to see it in robot mode and airplane mode, it will be faster, easier and less heartbreaking to build two models.

If that didn't change your mind, my advice is to build strong. You want your model to support itself without drooping and you don't want it to break. Avoid plastic on plastic joints. My first choice would by rubbery polycaps on metal shafts. The ABS joints from Wave, Kotobukiya and Yellow Submarine can break or wear out. I've never used them, but I was going to recommend these.

http://www.hlj.com/product/YLS40101

The magnets sound like a great idea. Backup everything with lots of epoxy.

I had links to Japanese sites and saved web pages with step-by-step photos of builds of transformable mechs. I can't believe I've lost all of them on my old computer. The best I can find now is this build of a Bronco from Orguss. (You don't see many of those.)

http://www.geocities.jp/vf_1jdatchi/page267.html
http://www.geocities.jp/vf_1jdatchi/page130.html

Build the joints and framework first and design the model around them. A mock-up is a good idea.

If you're scratchbuilding mechs, you want this book.

http://www.hlj.com/product/MDW22248

It's not going to help with transformation, but it's a great source for just about everything else you need to know. You can understand about 90% of it without reading Japanese. It ranks with the books by Alcorn and Wingrove as one of the best works on scratchbuilding. Dengeki and Hobby Japan publish lots of how-to books. Some of them are more helpful than others.

Mike

[kugar13]

Mike,

Thanks for the wonderful advice! The links you sent are awesome!

We'll be doing stop motion animation with the models, so being able to pose the model is needed. We'll probably make a few fixed models for static shots when needed. Thanks for the joint suggestions. It amazes me the resources at hand you guys have to develop your craft!

Thanks again!

Kugar

[kugar13]

What are your favorite sites to buy model supplies, models, tools and such? I see you have a store here is awesome as well.

What are your favorite books on scratch building? The gundam book looks awesome, but I'd like to have one in english as well.

Thanks

[Kylwell]

The Gundam books are an interesting look @ building model armatures. Those guys know their stuff. I've got a book that also shows using Legos to work out joint systems and what, I think it's by Kawamori Shoji.

[en'til Zog]

Dude!

Stop motion models are animation models, way different from simple transformable or positionable models.

They absolutely MUST be able to adjust in tiny controlled increments and hold position for hours or days without "drifting" or sagging.

Polycaps may not cut it for what you need. Check this site for sources of specifically animation armatures, ball and socket sets, with variable tension, made in metal.

I've seen that info here, but I'm not sure where.

You will NOT be a happy camper if you are 206 frames into an animation sequence and a joint suddenly droops overnight!

[Wug]

Hi kugar13,

Animation armatures are a whole new world of hurt. As en'til Zog points out, animation joints require a new level of strength, durability, dependability, control and repeatability. Steel on steel joints are the norm. This is the first link google returned for "animation armature".

http://www.armaverse.com/

That's what joints that can withstand the rigors of stop-motion look like.

A new post with something like "stop-motion animation joints" in the title should get a response from people with more knowledge in the field. I think someone on this form or the MaK form is building an AT-ST animation miniature. And I think he's making his own joints. Here:

viewtopic.php?t=78819&sid=53a49958bfe2b ... 04c5d728ef

The model will also need to be more durable. Depending on the size you need, fiberglass might be an option. That's another specialist skill.

Design a way to tighten the joints without disassembling the model. Think about the big allen heads on the AT-AT legs.

You'll get more helpful responses if you include more information. How big does it need to be? How good does it need to be? A comedic parody, a toy brought to life and realistic technothriller are all different requirements. How much screen time does it need to endure?

You might be able to get away with a live-action transformation sequence. Watch transformation sequences from old Power Rangers and similar shows and incorporate all the cheats you see. If you're making a comedy, the more unrealistic the transformation sequence the funnier it will be, provided the director is reasonably talented and the music is totally overblown.

You might want to start new threads for suppliers and books.

Hi Kylwell,

Do you have any more information about the Kawamori Shoji Lego book?

Mike

I hate it when the form logs me off while I write a post.

[MSW]

Honestly technology has come a LONG way. A model that has drooped isn't much of a problem anymore with much of the onion skinning stop motion software available today. With the proper set up any old model can work provided it can hold a pose long enough for you to step out of frame...so those polycaps can work, as can the good old wire armature trick... I wouldn't go with a full armature unless this was for a proffessional film, even then it might not be worth the expense.

Your first stop should be http://www.stopmotionanimation.com/
web site ran by some industry proffessionals...Jim Danforth and even Ray Harryhausen have used the messageboards there.

Here is a youtuber that does some pretty nice stop motion animation:
http://www.youtube.com/user/PatrickBoiv ... 181B315ECD

Even has some behind the scenes stuff...

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Another thing you have to take into consideration is finish. Model finishes are not particularly durable. Places of friction, like those along the inside of the "thigh" of Valkyries are going to rub the paint right off of your model after just one or two transformations. Why? The "real" Valk has phantasmagoric-superceramitified coats; we have paint. At best, we have automotive colors and Future. Don't forget that firm, but cautious handling of the thing during transformation is also going to rub off paint from any high areas your fingers are fondling during transformation.

Save yourself the trouble. Build different versions. Or, buy a toy to play with. That's what the guys at Macrossworld do.

As for scratchbuilding, learn from the master, Sheperd Paine. I have all of his books and read them constantly. The two that would of the most benefit to you, I think, would be Modeling Tanks and Military Vehicles and Building and Painting Scale Figures. The reason is the first book progresses from basic through advanced building and the second book contains posing and armature construction instructions.

As a side story, during a summer job in 1996, my boss, the owner of Castle Hobbies in Louisville, made me transcribe all four of Shep's books. I had just finished my first year of college, was a modeler (or so thought I was) and was a student-athlete looking for a job. He, an avid figure modeler, wanted to make damn sure I knew what I was doing and actually would have me stay past closing to finish my assigned chapters for the day. One week, I actually earned some overtime for doing it! I learned more about modeling that summer than I ever did. At the end of the summer, I had four notebooks of Shep Paine handwritten and he gave me two of the books I had been transcribing. I have bought the other two since.

Here's the link to Shep's books:

http://sheperdpaine.com/books/index.htm

By the way, what is the subject? Is it from a series or is it your own design?

I hope this helps.

Kenny

[Pengbuzz]

Hey guys/gals,

Anyone know of any good books, online tutorials, sites and such on how to scratch build models that transform? Specifically Veritech-like fighters from Robotech (transform from jet to robot)? I've done a search online with no luck.


Thanks!

I rebuilt an SDF-1 toy into a replica of the Macross from "Do you remember love", and I had to sacrifice the transform because it would have been too weak to withstand transformation.

The same thing applies to designing and building your own transforming fighter, which I have also done.

For one thing, if you are talking about the VF-1 series from Macross, those are not consistent between their separate modes if you look at the animation art. For another, even with well-designed ones like Yamato's series, you see that compromises were made to get the best for all worlds. Not to mention that some parts are going to be rail-thin or outright fragile, that's the nature of the beast.

frankly, the advice you got here about building in each mode you want is the best advice; after a while, parts will loosen up, misaligned or outright break. And on a custom-designed version, a repair from constant transformation may mean ripping the thing half apart just to get at a joint that is half-buried. Models were never really meant to be disassembled unless designed as such. most of them go together and that is it.

I'm not trying to discourage you. kugar13, but at the same time, I don't want to see you get deep into a project you adore only to see it go to pot and snap because it could not take the strain.

Best of luck to you! :thumbup:

[MillenniumFalsehood]

Carbon fiber reinforcement would be a good thing to look into. Three rods in a bundle will be stiff enough to handle most applications, provided the model is small enough. If that's not enough, then go with a tube or box.

[naoto]

http://www.starshipmodeler.net/talk/vie ... hp?t=83633
Perhaps the site referenced doesn't actually give actual details of construction, but does give some ideas regarding transformation.

[G-man]

better late then never i suppose.
I ran across this not long ago for a custom computer case i am designing / building for a friend.
http://www.scarletstarstudios.com/blog/ ... e_a_b.html
i needed to be able to have pose-able panels to cover up un used ports on the computer, and other pose-able parts as well.

I would think that a setup similar to this might be able to be used to make Scale models that are transformable, yet rigid as well

G-man