artist's oils for washes and such - question!

[Spacephrawg]

I keep seeing this stuff used and I like the results better than one can get with inks. Thing is though that as i remember from art school, artist's oils take years to dry properly and its a bad idea to put anything over them, like varnishes and anything acrylic.

And yet everyone from you guys to Fine Scale Modeler seem to have no trouble putting dull coats and sealers and whatnot over them and you never appear to have trouble.

How is that possible?

Alternately, is the entire modeling community doing it wrong?

[eeun]

On a canvas, you might have a blob of oil paint a quarter of an inch think - possibly more depending on the enthusiasm of the artist and the style of painting. So yes, it can take ages to dry. There's Japan drier to accelerate the drying process, but I've not heard of model builders needing to use it.

Weathering with oils on models uses so much less paint, and usually thinned, that the drying time is greatly accelerated. I thin with either turpentine or hardware store varsol, and usually a day is enough for the paint to dry enough for any cleanups, and a couple days or so for a coat of Future. Never had any problems from the oils. I apply over a coat of gloss or matted Future, depending on the task.

You get what you pay for with oils, with the more expensive oils having finer pigments that thin better, and for modeling a tube will last darn-near forever. That said, I've got an el cheap-o set of about a dozen colours, and they work very well as long as they're not overly thinned.

[Romulan Spy]

The high thinner to paint ratio means that there is very little actual oil in the mix; so, yeah, a water-thin smear of oil paint won't take any longer than plain hobby enamels to dry.

[Spacephrawg]

Well this is great news! I can go back to using oils with confidence. Thanks guys!


On a side note - assuming i'm painting something that will spend a lot of time outside (RC PT boat), is future still a good choice? Over on my fav RC forum, people have been talking about using Testors gloss and flat for everything regardless of what sort of paint. What do you think?

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Well this is great news! I can go back to using oils with confidence. Thanks guys!


On a side note - assuming i'm painting something that will spend a lot of time outside (RC PT boat), is future still a good choice? Over on my fav RC forum, people have been talking about using Testors gloss and flat for everything regardless of what sort of paint. What do you think?

Testor's is a lacquer and absolutely, positively will yellow with time. I have four or five models from the early nineties that look like they're stained with urine instead of gloss- and then dullcoated with Testor's. And, no, they spent zero time in the sun on display in my cases over the years.

There's one thing with the oils. I have never, never gotten oils to work right over Future. I'm pretty good with finishing and I can't get the darned things to work. I use Winsor & Newton oils with turpentine, turpatine, linseed oil, and turpenoid. The result is always the same, regardless of the formula: The oils etch my Future, no matter how long I let the Future stuff cure, and they cannot be wiped away. I use fresh Future, Future from 1969, Future from that temple in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Future thinned with alcohol/water/dragon feces/Windex (I'm very precise in my methods, read my stuff in this forum), and it never works. Cheap oils don't work either. Japan dryer doesn't help things either, supposedly allowing the oils to dry faster and keeping them from etching the Future.

IF you still want to use the oils, don't use turpentine. Use the weaker turpatine or turpenoid. All the guys who are really good with the oil washes recommend this.

Now, if you want the absolute best thing going, use inks and pastels for washes (not mixed together). With the inks, you can't just use any inks, you need pigmentless inks. The only true ones out there are those made with dyes and they are made by Winsor & Newton. Fill a mixing palette well with water, and add a drop or two of laundry (NOT DISH) detergent to the water. Now, touch just the tip of a paintbrush handle into the jar of ink and then into the water/soap solution. Apply over Future that's cured for at least 24 hours and be amazed. Wick away the excess with the torn edge of a paper towel. Wipe away large amounts with the folded edge of a paper towel, using it like a squeegee.

To make the ultimate in blendable washes, and make the oil wash users jealous, make the same water and laundry soap solution above. Then scrape some pastel powder into the mixing palette well and stir. Make sure you're not using oil pastels, and are using the good old chalk pastels. Pastels are blendable when they're dry...and they're blendable when they're wet. Apply over cured Future as with the inks. Wick away the excess with the torn edge of a paper towel. Wipe away large amounts with the folded edge of a paper towel, using it like a squeegee.

I hope this helps.

Kenny

[Spacephrawg]

Well this is great news! I can go back to using oils with confidence. Thanks guys!


On a side note - assuming i'm painting something that will spend a lot of time outside (RC PT boat), is future still a good choice? Over on my fav RC forum, people have been talking about using Testors gloss and flat for everything regardless of what sort of paint. What do you think?

Testor's is a lacquer and absolutely, positively will yellow with time. I have four or five models from the early nineties that look like they're stained with urine instead of gloss- and then dullcoated with Testor's. And, no, they spent zero time in the sun on display in my cases over the years.

There's one thing with the oils. I have never, never gotten oils to work right over Future. I'm pretty good with finishing and I can't get the darned things to work. I use Winsor & Newton oils with turpentine, turpatine, linseed oil, and turpenoid. The result is always the same, regardless of the formula: The oils etch my Future, no matter how long I let the Future stuff cure, and they cannot be wiped away. I use fresh Future, Future from 1969, Future from that temple in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Future thinned with alcohol/water/dragon feces/Windex (I'm very precise in my methods, read my stuff in this forum), and it never works. Cheap oils don't work either. Japan dryer doesn't help things either, supposedly allowing the oils to dry faster and keeping them from etching the Future.

IF you still want to use the oils, don't use turpentine. Use the weaker turpatine or turpenoid. All the guys who are really good with the oil washes recommend this.

Now, if you want the absolute best thing going, use inks and pastels for washes (not mixed together). With the inks, you can't just use any inks, you need pigmentless inks. The only true ones out there are those made with dyes and they are made by Winsor & Newton. Fill a mixing palette well with water, and add a drop or two of laundry (NOT DISH) detergent to the water. Now, touch just the tip of a paintbrush handle into the jar of ink and then into the water/soap solution. Apply over Future that's cured for at least 24 hours and be amazed. Wick away the excess with the torn edge of a paper towel. Wipe away large amounts with the folded edge of a paper towel, using it like a squeegee.

To make the ultimate in blendable washes, and make the oil wash users jealous, make the same water and laundry soap solution above. Then scrape some pastel powder into the mixing palette well and stir. Make sure you're not using oil pastels, and are using the good old chalk pastels. Pastels are blendable when they're dry...and they're blendable when they're wet. Apply over cured Future as with the inks. Wick away the excess with the torn edge of a paper towel. Wipe away large amounts with the folded edge of a paper towel, using it like a squeegee.

I hope this helps.

Kenny

Thanks!

I have a few more questions now:

When i have washed with inks in the past and i go to wipe up excess, the paper towel sucks the ink out of the lines as well as on the surface. I am reminded of the LOLcat thing where it says "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG". Do I let the ink dry first? What about the pastel wash? Do I let that dry first too and then go at the excess with a damp rag?

What gloss or dull coat would you recommend if not Testors? Also does Future make anything in a spray can? I don't have an airbrush right now.

[Kylwell]

Let is dry somewhat. If it's totally dry it can be a pill to scrub off, specially with pastel sludge washes. I usually wait for it to go a bit flat looking, then go at it w/a damp cloth.

[Spacephrawg]

Let is dry somewhat. If it's totally dry it can be a pill to scrub off, specially with pastel sludge washes. I usually wait for it to go a bit flat looking, then go at it w/a damp cloth.

That works with inks as well? My experience with using some inks for art purposes is that once they are dry, they stay dry. Other inks of course will run.

So windsor and newton inks ftw? Not india ink right?

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Let is dry somewhat. If it's totally dry it can be a pill to scrub off, specially with pastel sludge washes. I usually wait for it to go a bit flat looking, then go at it w/a damp cloth.

That works with inks as well? My experience with using some inks for art purposes is that once they are dry, they stay dry. Other inks of course will run.

So windsor and newton inks ftw? Not india ink right?

You treat all washes the same, even the dreaded oils - don't let them set up. You want to wipe them away when they're still moist. Excess runs mop up right away. Mop up too much? Let it sit for a minute until it's "tacky" and then hit with moistened moppy thingy. My moppy thingy of choice when going after the inks or pastels after they've set for a minute (I totally left this out above) is a white tee-shirt just barely damp with a the slightest bit of water or saliva from the tip of my tongue (delicious).

To clarify: Mop up any really runny excess right away with the paper towel edge or folded paper towel squeegee mop technique (very technical terms, I know). The more practice you have, the less you will have to mop. Let the wash set for a bit until, as Robb says it looks a little flat, and then wipe away the remaining bits with a damp tee-shirt.

Winsor and Newton inks, yes. Now, they do make black India inks in a big bottle. Don't get that by mistake, as it, and their white ink have pigment. The rest, including the non-India black illustrator ink, and the other colored illustrator inks are dye-based and pigmentless. They make a lot of colors. Terry taught me how to use these things a few years ago.

I hope this helps you out. I am off to bed. I've been sculpting this ^%@^$%^ figure all night.

Kenny

[Spacephrawg]

thanks for that! I wish this info had been readily available when i was in middleschool and began modeling!

Btw what about watercolors? i've seen them used by some Ma.K modelers with good effect. Can they be used the same way or no?

[Kylwell]

Water colors are similar to a pastel sludge wash (where you grind pastels into dust and add a little water). Because they have very little adhesion you can wait until they go 'matte' and wipe with a damp cloth.

Tee-shirt material, as the Lt said, is great for removing excess. The knit material wicks well and is very low in abrasion and lint. Avoid paper towels unless you want a somewhat fuzzy model.

[TER-OR]

I use transparent watercolors instead of artists inks for washes. If you have a good clear gloss coat, you let them dry and remove the excess with a damp Q-tip or soft cloth. The rest will remain in the recess. You will need to dilute them and use a surfactant to promote capillary action.

[Spacephrawg]

and they're cheaper than pastels apparently.

Good old Kruger apparently uses them a lot IIRC: http://www.maschinenkrueger.com/joomla/ now that i think of it. He mentioned that once in one of his older SAFS builds.

Perhaps i should also try pastel plus water color?

[Jonas Calhoun]

Dye-based inks? Don't you have a problem with lightfastness?

Dan

[TER-OR]

India Inks. No problem so far with colorfastness. Granted, I don't store my completed models in the window, but the cabinet is opposite a south-facing window.

http://www.winsornewton.com/products/in ... -ink-pack/

That's the pack I bought some years ago. IIRC I had a bottle of India Ink already, that's the almost-black.

I know, I need to do a little video tutorial.

[Lord Darth Beavis]

And don't do what I did, and buy the alcohol-based inks. They do a number on all sorts of finishes, including fogging Future.

As long as we're talking oil paints, can water-based oils be used the same way? I'm trying to go as eco-friendly as I can, as we live with my mother-in-law, and she has serious breathing issues. IIRC, oils, and the associated thinners smell, and I'd like to avoid that.

Suggestions, gurus?

[Spacephrawg]

And don't do what I did, and buy the alcohol-based inks. They do a number on all sorts of finishes, including fogging Future.

As long as we're talking oil paints, can water-based oils be used the same way? I'm trying to go as eco-friendly as I can, as we live with my mother-in-law, and she has serious breathing issues. IIRC, oils, and the associated thinners smell, and I'd like to avoid that.

Suggestions, gurus?

Waterbased oils? Mutually exclusive or am i ignorant?

[Wug]

Water mixable oils

http://www.winsornewton.com/main.aspx?PageID=35

[seam-filler]

Those are new to me. May be worth an experiment. Looking at the drying times, though, they don't seem to offer much better than normal oils - just a lot easier/safer to thin & clean up.

[Spacephrawg]

Those are new to me. May be worth an experiment. Looking at the drying times, though, they don't seem to offer much better than normal oils - just a lot easier/safer to thin & clean up.

I'm ok with that.

[TER-OR]

Go straight to the transparent watercolors and skip the emulsified oil paints.

[Spacephrawg]

Go straight to the transparent watercolors and skip the emulsified oil paints.

I think i shall then.

[Lord Darth Beavis]

Cool! Thanks for the tips, Ter.

As long as we're talking about this stuff, I have a bottle of black India ink, and a bottle of sepia India ink (both pigmented). Is the any good use for these, or should I just hand them off to the better half?

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Cool! Thanks for the tips, Ter.

As long as we're talking about this stuff, I have a bottle of black India ink, and a bottle of sepia India ink (both pigmented). Is the any good use for these, or should I just hand them off to the better half?

It's probably not the best idea in the world, unless you're using them in an area where you can get at the excess easily with your tee-shirt moppy thingy when you go to wipe it away. The pigmented ink wash will generally act like the pastel wash; as the wash dries, that pigment will clump a bit at the edges of the wash. However, unlike the pastel wash, that pigment is generally not (very) blendable. Make certain you can get at it, otherwise, you'll have little scale pieces of soot in you're greeblie recesses. Granted, as long as it was applied over cured Future, you could scrub it out with a watery paint brush, but then you will cause problems elsewhere, potentially.

Don't throw it away, though, as pigmented India ink does actually have some uses. It looks great as oil stains. Additionally, it makes an excellent "blackener" for some paints. Also, depending on the pigment size, it make look pretty sweet airbrushed, saving your precious Winsor & Newton dye-based stuff for washes and glazes.

I hope this helps.

Kenny

[Lord Darth Beavis]

Thanks, Kenny! I used it mixed with Future, to tone down a What-If Corsair I did. Also used it on the Stryker, made it look really greasy. I'll keep on using it, then!

[TER-OR]

I'm preparing a video tutorial on the ink/future glaze. I'll try to do the video tomorrow.

[Lt. Z0mBe]

Thanks, Kenny! I used it mixed with Future, to tone down a What-If Corsair I did. Also used it on the Stryker, made it look really greasy. I'll keep on using it, then!

Sam,

I was talking about a wash, not a glaze. Glaze is Future based, with the Future drying and sucking the color down into the recesses. Glazes and pigmented stuff is generally bantha poodoo, as the pigment can't get evenly distributed like dye can as the Future dries. A wash is water base, with a drop of laundry (NOT DISH) soap or Flow Aid plus the ink. You can get away with the pigmented inks in certain applications in washes, not usually with glazes, as you cannot blend or remove a glaze once it's dry or even when it starts to set up. Use dye-based ink with glazes.

Touch a tacky glaze with a cotton swab or tee shirt as it's setting up, you'll smudge your previous Future coats and colorcoat - oftentimes even enamels. Why? Future is clear acrylic/latex paint. Touch a tacky wash as it's setting up, and you'll do what you're supposed to do, remove the excess dye or pigments. Why? It's just water and surfactant with a bit of pigment or dye in it and none of the binders and solvents paints have.

I hope this helps.

Kenny

[Lord Darth Beavis]

Sure does! Thanks for the clarification.

Hmmm...what can I wash down next?

[Kylwell]

Sure does! Thanks for the clarification.

Hmmm...what can I wash down next?

A beer?

[Mark Yungblut]

Thing is though that as i remember from art school, artist's oils take years to dry properly and its a bad idea to put anything over them, like varnishes and anything acrylic.

I too am an art school grad and They told me the same stuff. Well it's not true of most modern Oils. If you paint figures and such with oild they'll stay blendable for maybe two weeks. Typically you work in such thin layers that it will dry in a day or two.

I Always do my washed thinned with traditional turps. I can get those washed to set overnight typically. The truly important thing it to make sure you have a good barrier coat on the model you plan to use washes on. Also a neat little trick I picked up from an illustrator friend is using a Kneaded artists eraser. if you have an acrylic base, you can gently "lift" the oils wash up from highlighted areas with the eraser. This also gives you the ability to use intense washes as a "stain". Works wonders for painting wood grain textures etc.

Cheers,

Mark