CNC or Laser Cutter

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:13 am

I'd like your opinions. Which would you get, if you had the chance, a desktop CNC or a laser cutter? I'm a bit torn, between the decision. The General CNC i-Carver 40-915X seems like a good tool for machining MDF and creating masters, I would think, but a laser cutter can accurately cut styrene, acrylic and wood into pieces that can be assembled.
I know both have advantages and disadvantages, but if you had a choice which would you choose as a best all-around tool?

TazMan2000

Umi_Ryuzuki · Post by **Umi_Ryuzuki** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:41 am

The deck, raised platform parts, pilot houses and windows were all CNC cut.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachme ... id=5105874

Rogviler · Post by **Rogviler** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:04 am

I would much prefer a CNC machine, although ideally I would have both. Even that particular CNC machine can do cutting in three dimensions, so that seals it for me. It's not like you could make anything huge, but assembling smaller pieces in to something large is what it's all about anyway.

In my mind, a laser cutter is more geared toward cutting out flat panels and for engraving very fine detail. Unless I absolutely needed the engraving part, a CNC would be a better choice for a wider range of model making.

Even if I was going to expand my tool range from a CNC, I would probably get a lathe and possibly a milling machine before I got a laser cutter.

-Rog

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:23 am

Umi_Ryuzuki wrote:The deck, raised platform parts, pilot houses and windows were all CNC cut.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachme ... id=5105874

How are the edges of the cutouts? Are they rough?

TazMan2000

Mr. Badwrench · Post by **Mr. Badwrench** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:33 am

If you had to pick one of the two, get the CNC. It can do everything the laser cutter can do, not so the other way 'round. The biggest advantage to the laser machine is it probably has a larger work area, and a much shallower learning curve. If you can operate a printer, you can operate a laser engraver. (Although a printer won't burn itself to the ground if you use it wrong, but I digress). You can do engraving with a CNC mill, but it's slower, and the tooling is more expensive.

One other thing to consider. When you buy an engraver, you are pretty much ready to learn to use it right out of the box. It requires some venting, (like a clothes dryer), and software installation. Also requires some illustration skills, but you're a modeler, so I assume you've already got that. A CNC mill is different. The machine does nothing without tools. You'll need a vise, toe clamp set, drills, center drills, taps, end mills, tool holders for all these, a variety of measuring instruments and gauges, not to mention the software used to compile CNC code, and guides for calculating feeds and speeds. Whatever you spend on a CNC, prepare to spend half again as much on tools. And half as much again replacing tools you break while learning.

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:30 am

As Mr. Badwrench said, plan on spending as much for tooling as you'd spend on the CNC itself. You'll also want to get a CNC that can do truly fine work, otherwise you're better off with the cutter.

Joseph Osborn · Post by **Joseph Osborn** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:19 pm

I used to think I wanted a CNC mill with a 4th axis, but I don't even consider that anymore since 3d printers have evolved so much and I don't work with metal very much. I could make good use of a laser cutter, though.

Rogviler · Post by **Rogviler** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:36 pm

Joseph Osborn wrote:I used to think I wanted a CNC mill with a 4th axis, but I don't even consider that anymore since 3d printers have evolved so much and I don't work with metal very much. I could make good use of a laser cutter, though.

LOL, good point, I didn't even think to suggest the third option of a straight printer. There your only limitation is how finely it can lay down material, whereas a CNC is limited by whatever tool it's using. Inside corners are tougher with a tool having to cut them. Theoretically you could get laser accuracy out of a printer if it was a decent machine. Of course you're limited to plastic though.

I would probably be working with a lot of metal if I had the ability, so that still points to CNC for me, but it would be awesome to click "print" and come back later to have a new object sitting there. No babying it or swapping out tools for different cuts.

-Rog

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:41 pm

Thanks for all the opinions so far. I was considering a 3d printer, however, I just don't think the technology is at the level that I would consider acceptable, for the price that I could afford. I know there DIY kits out there, but I would rather have something that works right out of the box, rather than dealing with putting together hardware. Also, I only seem to see low resolution images or video of the work the 3d printers output, so it is difficult to see if the quality would be acceptable. But, hey...prove me wrong, please.
Tooling...a very good point. I never considered that expense.
Please keep the opinions coming, for my benefit, and others that may be thinking about getting another tool for their workshop, now that there is affordable equipment out there for the home user.

TazMan2000

Johnnycrash · Post by **Johnnycrash** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:53 pm

The DIY 3D printers are crap. A great little novelty item, but that's it. Don't waste your time even looking into them. Move along, nothing to see there...

I would go with the Laser Cutter. It is SO much more flexible in terms of what it can do (albeit in flat stock). While the CNC would be really cool, when you mess up, it could cost you more than some time. You can mess up the part, the tool, or the machine. And each one gets more (way more) expensive of a mistake. A wrong off-set, wrong tool for the off-set, forget to reset tool to the 0,0,0... Ouch!!!

With the laser cutter, a mistake just ends up in the spares bin, with a loss in time, and maybe $10 of plastic (and you WILL find a use for that scrap later). Sure, you have to build up parts from flat stock. But the material is cheap, and you can get most of your panel lines straight, and symmetrical.

And, as others have pointed out, it's pretty much ready to run out of the box. If you can draw on the computer, you're pretty much golden.

So, what laser cutter system are looking at??

DennisH · Post by **DennisH** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:37 pm

ShopBot Desktop is going to be coming out with interchangable options to go along with the 3D digitizing probe.

Coming soon: we'll have add-ons such as a Laser Cutter and 3D Printing (plasma extrusion) tools -- all of which will make your investment in the ShopBot Desktop even more valuable.

http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/desktop.htm

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:10 pm

Johnnycrash wrote:So, what laser cutter system are looking at??

I looked at https://www.inventables.com/technologie ... ser-cutter, but I haven't found many reviews of it.
Anything you would recommend that will keep me golden with the wife?

TazMan2000

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:19 pm

I'll keep an eye on the shopbot. Thanks, Dennis.

TazMan2000

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:39 am

Go Epilog. Easy, handy, great customer support.

Umi_Ryuzuki · Post by **Umi_Ryuzuki** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:51 am

TazMan2000 wrote:
Umi_Ryuzuki wrote:The deck, raised platform parts, pilot houses and windows were all CNC cut.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachme ... id=5105874

How are the edges of the cutouts? Are they rough?

TazMan2000

You can see some of the edges here where Keith is assembling the cabin.
There is a little stray fibers, but there isn't much finishing to do.
Pretty much cut the tabs, sand the edges a bit, and liquid weld the parts together.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachme ... id=5115418

The cut would surface would vary with the sharpness of the tool, and the speed the tool is being run. Both in RPM, and inches per second.

Mr. Badwrench · Post by **Mr. Badwrench** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:26 am

If you decide on a laser engraver, I would recommend Epilog too. But I'm biased.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:17 pm

If you can afford a $4500 engraver, you can afford a pretty darned good desktop CNC mill. And _that_ is the way I'd go. YOU can do anything the engraver or laser can do (only smaller parts, granted), but so much more.

There is tooling and a learning curve, to be sure and set-up time can be a bit of a b!tch, but the overall capability is immense. Using proof board (polyurethane foam cutting/tooling board), you can get extremely fine detail and still not beat up your tooling.

Still, for that kind of money, you can generate quite a lot of 3D printed parts. With no investment in machinery or tooling.

Still, if buying a tool, by the mill.

I have a non-CNC mill and lathe and really, really like them.

Paul

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:18 pm

Tankmodeler wrote:If you can afford a $4500 engraver, you can afford a pretty darned good desktop CNC mill.
Paul

Would you have any recommendations on which model of CNC?

TazMan2000

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:26 pm

TazMan2000 wrote:
Tankmodeler wrote:If you can afford a $4500 engraver, you can afford a pretty darned good desktop CNC mill.
Paul
Would you have any recommendations on which model of CNC?

TazMan2000

It all depends upon the size of the items you want to make.

The top of the line, computer & software included, Sherline is $4900.

The top of the line Taig, with software but no computer is $2500.

Tormach makes really nice looking systems, but they're on the small shop price range as opposed to home desktop machines. Still, you can get a really spiff machine for about $8K that has an extra couple of inches of trave in all axes compared to the Sherline or Taig. But you can see that once you start to get out of the Sherline range, the prices do start to increase rather dramatically.

The Roland MDX-20 runs $5000 and has a very small work area of only 8" x 6" x 2 3/8".

My Taig has held up very well over the last 20 years, so I can recommend that, for sure, but the Sherlines have a slightly higher level of finish on all the parts for a bit more money. Sherline have a very good reputation as well.

Paul

Kylwell · Post by **Kylwell** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:43 pm

Last time I check I didn't think Sherline had a turnkey CNC mill. They have one with the motors factory installed but you still had to go third party for everything else.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:54 pm

Kylwell wrote:Last time I check I didn't think Sherline had a turnkey CNC mill. They have one with the motors factory installed but you still had to go third party for everything else.

I didn't think so either, but I just checked this afternoon and that's their price for their most tricked out machine with the largest XY table, the computer, software & the whole kit & kaboodle (whatever a kaboodle is).

b8factor · Post by **b8factor** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:35 pm

I had posted this in another topic, but this one may be more relevant?

Interested in getting a CNC myself but the problem i ran into is most sources are for general CNC(signs, larger pieces, basic tool molds) and not fine detail work like what would be needed for modelling. then i ran into this guy's blog and it answered a lot of questions for me.

you may be right about the CNC, but i did stumble on to this guy's blow and it was illuminating!

http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/rstory/

http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/candy-bott ... 20/detail/

TazMan2000 · Post by **TazMan2000** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:47 am

Thank b8factor. After the discussion and many great arguments for laser and CNC here, I was still on the fence. Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. But after reading those articles, I think for my needs and the type of modelling that I do, CNC is the way to go.
But if money was not an issue I definitely would like both.

TazMan2000

b8factor · Post by **b8factor** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:15 am

I am leaning on getting a machine myself and doing the research now.

At the moment I have narrowed it down to Roland 20, Taig, and Syil.

http://www.rolanddga.com/products/scanners/mdx15/
http://www.taigtools.com/cmill.html
http://www.syilamerica.com/machine_x4st.php

I am having to weigh the choice between resolution, 4th axis, weight of machine, and where to put the machine.

-B

Mr. Badwrench · Post by **Mr. Badwrench** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:37 am

Why not just use one of these? Leadwell V-60. Sturdy, fast, accurate to within .0001", optional 4th axis, standard 6000rpm spindle or optional 10,000rpm spindle. Requires a large machine shop to operate.

Ok, just kiddin'.

That Syil America machine looks really nice. About twice as expensive as other hobby machines, but it looks rigid, has an automatic oiler, and optional 4th axis, for $900 more.

Tankmodeler · Post by **Tankmodeler** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:40 am

Yeah, the Syil look pretty good, but I wonder at the utility of that 4th axis. It's quite large/tall for a hobby rotary turntable. It would use up a lot of vertial travel. It would be more useful turned on it's side so that its axis was parallel to the table. But that's more tooling & set up.

Sherline offers a CNC rotary table for $400, and it's a bit flatter as well.

There are some tooling plates that allow the adaptation of the Sherline tools (including the rotary table) to the Taig (and I suspect other mills as well).

Paul