Excelsior Class Lighting

Trekmanscott · Post by **Trekmanscott** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Well,
I have stripped both my Excelsior and Enterprise-B. I have the DLM lighting parts. I have decals and I've started modifiing the kit parts to accept the DLM parts.

I need a simple way to light these beasties. I read the 4060 thread. It gave me some ideas. It sounds like I can wire up one 4060 and run every LED in the ship. This is what I think I will need

3 Whites in the saucer
2 reds for impulse engines (4 in the ent-B)
1 green nav light 1 red nav light (Blinking)
2 blues in the secondary hull (Nav Deflector & shuttlebay)

3 blues in each warp nacelle

I will also need the white navigational strobes

I have lighted models before, but I think these models will be the most complex lighting I have done. I would prefer to power the models with 2 9v in parallel.

Any advice will help.

Thanks

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:11 pm

http://www.powerstream.com/9V-Alkaline-tests.htm

I think the three chains of white/blue will eat into your play time pretty heavily. Assuming 20mA draw, the combine draw on the batteries will be 60 mA. Add the current used by the strobe circuit, the nav lights. . . etc. Thats pretty close to some of batteries tested in that alkaline test, it might run for 4 or 5 hours. Considering the LEDs, if they take 3.3 volts, are already under voltaged, as the battery output decays the LEDs will reach the cut out point soon.

If you use the current driver circuit you might get a stronger output for longer but the total time that the LEDs stay light (even if dim) will be shortened.

BTW http://www.ifilm.com/video/2858146
a 9 volt is only a pack of AAAA (Quad A) batteries, isn't that an awesome clip?

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:18 pm

If you are set on using the 9 volts, get away from using resistors on the LEDs, every once of current/voltage wasted is going to count. Think Apollo 13 re-start sequence.

Right off I see that the 2 blues in the deflector will want another similar voltage/current LED.

Trekmanscott · Post by **Trekmanscott** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:57 pm

would it make more sence to have different batteries running different circuts?

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:14 am

Depends on how much jiggery-pokery you are willing to do with the wiring. 2 9 volts in series gives you ~18 volts, and that could turn out to be a nice series of 5 LEDs, if they are 3.6 volt LEDs. That could work, three of the blues in one nacelle wired with the two in the deflector.

What were you going to use the 4060 to do? Just drive the blinking LEDs, nav lights and strobe lights?

You're still going to end up with some left over voltage on the nav lights and strobes. unless you can use 5 of each color.

Will you be getting Madman's current driver board by any chance? This will work to efficiently drive the LEDs. And I believe it lets you have different numbers of LEDs for each output. I.E. you could have 3 LEDs on one output, 3 LEDs on another, another 3 and then another 2, all running from 9 volts, or 18 volts (not sure if it can take up to 18 volts maybe not).
This will help isolate each set of LEDs too.

You can get current driver parts if you don't want to get the board. But having it pre made is nice.

For the 4060: That will work to limit the current to each LED hooked to it, but the LED chain has to be rigged to take the supply voltage this case, 9 volts (or 18). So each output will want to be 3 white or blue LEDs, or 9 volts divided by what ever the LED wants in voltage. Then the chip will limit the current for you. Not sure if you can rely on the idea that if the LED gets 11 mA @ 9 volts and it wanted 20 mA @ 3.6 then it doesn't need to be put in series with other LEDs, or use a resistor. I'd have to see the operating curve of the LED, each type of LED (for each manufacturer) will have a curve. It is possible that that configuration could work, since its mostly about power delivered to the LED (heat dissipation) and some min/max voltage considerations.

I'll poke around on digikey and see if I can find some data sheets that will answer that last question.

Trekmanscott · Post by **Trekmanscott** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:05 am

I ment to say 9v in series

Scott Hasty · Post by **Scott Hasty** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:21 pm

Trekmanscott wrote:I ment to say 9v in series

That would give you 18 volts and half the current of them in parrallel. I really hate 9V batteries for these applications. Typical 9V batteries have a 500mA capacity with a typical drain of 15mA. Go much above that and the battery will start getting hot.

On the flip side, AA's have a capacity of 2000mA and a drain of 50mA. I've found that 4, wired in series (which most battery packs are wired to) gives me MORE than enough juice.

I ran 2 4060's with 5 LED's on each along with a 555 flasher with an LED and 10 static LED's for over a week until the 4060's started acting up due to lack of current.

Scottie

Trekmanscott · Post by **Trekmanscott** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:28 pm

Thats a good tip! Thanks!

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:33 pm

That's what I was afraid of with the 9 volt. 15 MA lets you power one chain of white or blue LEDs (3 with one 9 volts, 6 with two 9 volts in series).

Scott I'd like to create a thread about power sources and include your comment, its good practical, emperial testing done by a modeler for a modeler. . .

Scott Hasty · Post by **Scott Hasty** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:32 pm

Sparky wrote:That's what I was afraid of with the 9 volt. 15 MA lets you power one chain of white or blue LEDs (3 with one 9 volts, 6 with two 9 volts in series).

Scott I'd like to create a thread about power sources and include your comment, its good practical, emperial testing done by a modeler for a modeler. . .

ANYthing I can do to increase knowledge and help those with little to no training on this I'll be glad to write/help. I'm actually designing a Halloween haunt that will use nothing but LED's in its lighting!

And one more thing I CANNOT say enough...DO NOT rely on the voltage output on that unused wal wart. Most [and I do mean MOST] are unregulated meaning a 12V wart will deliver 19 or 20 volts. Over the past year I have tested 15 or 20 warts and NONE of them came close to their rated output voltage! If you've seen my pics of my nacelle light strips, the wal wart that powered those was rated for 9V. Measured, it was just over 17 volts.....

Scottie

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:47 pm

I got the $40 dollar multi volt 1000mA one from radio shack and it is bang on for every voltage. But all the other multi volt ones I got (walmart and such) over shoot. I have not tried testing them under load. There's a chance that loading them down pulls it pack into regulation. Seems that in labs we were shown that artifact, the output filter cap on power supplies show high voltage until a slight load is added (measured with a multimeter).

Actually I have to do that test for Larry's bushwhacker, it needs 4.5 volt for the little reactor core motor, and the cockpit LEDs only want 3.3 volts. I can't have the power supply over powering the LEDs. but he doesn't need a $40 dollar power supply for that little bit of electronics.

don't mean to hi-jack your thread Scott. I think what I'll do is try to draw up a diagram for the circuit layout. Should be pretty easy schematic.

I looked on both digikey and mouser, and haven't found an optimal set of white, blue, red, and green LEDs. Either all the same current or all the same [forward] voltages.

Trekmanscott · Post by **Trekmanscott** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:58 pm

no problem Sparky, Thanks for the help.

jwrjr · Post by **jwrjr** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:56 pm

If you are going to use a 'wall wart', then either - use a regulated one, add a voltage regulator, or calculate the resistor values for the leds based on the 'wall wart' output voltage with no load. That way at least you don't overdrive your leds.

Kitkat · Post by **Kitkat** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:27 am

I'm actually finishing up an Excelsior right now with lighting. Instead of using 2 blue LEDs for the deflector and shuttlebay, I used one 5mm 360 degree LED with a blue lighting gel cut to shape(s). It worked out fairly well.
The only circuit board I used was a DLM Flasher. You might be over thinking the project some. The hardest part was enclosing the shuttlebay so that light could pass through windows in the lower secondary hull.

DLMatthys · Post by **DLMatthys** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:00 pm

Was that the 4 LED strobe flasher with 3909 chip? Work out OK?
I'm going to get it on the DLM site out to a bigger market soon. So far 4.5 to 6 volts DC works best on this.

I try not to design circuits or build with voltages any higher than that. Nor use battries. Also since I have forsaken incandesant lamps for way back to the 20th Century. A 6 volt lighting system works well with the ratings of most LEDs and the Miller Engineering's EL sheet lamps that I am now fond of using.

Kitkat · Post by **Kitkat** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:53 am

Hey Don, it was your basic simple flasher board...with one blinky in the saucer and one on each end of the nacelles. I think it has an old 555 chip. But I ordered it a while back(it takes me a loooong time to do a build up) so I don't recall and it's sealed up in the hull now.
My lighting strategies tend to be heavily influenced by your build up articles. I too try to keep the circuits simple and the voltage low. And I work almost exclusively with LEDs so the low voltage works quite well.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:27 am

bump

I'll look up some LEDs and get something put together for you Scott.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:46 pm

3 Whites in the saucer
2 reds for impulse engines (4 in the ent-B)
1 green nav light 1 red nav light (Blinking)
2 blues in the secondary hull (Nav Deflector & shuttlebay)

3 blues in each warp nacelle

I will also need the white navigational strobes

Ok some quick questions before I plow into making something up:

The Nav lights, need to blink, not the gently strobe effect?
The nav strobes, you want something like on for T off for 2T. T being some clock rate. Do you have a preference for this or just that T is adjustable.

If the nav lights blink and not gentle pulse what do you want, on for 2T off for 2T.

If they are some form of on off with a timing rate then I think we can make a circuit using some tricks to reduce parts count. and adjusting one clock rate adjusts them all in one shot.

The impulse engines don't exhibit any dimming FX.
The Warp nacelles don't exhibit any dimming FX.
All other LEDs appear to be always on.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:50 pm

Note that there is a circuit that lets you control how dim the LED will dim down too, how bright it swings up to, and the rate of the dimming. You can have the impulse engines gently fluttering or pulsing slightly over a long period.

I have a link to these FX if you need/want to see it.

Trekmanscott · Post by **Trekmanscott** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:11 pm

Sparky wrote:
3 Whites in the saucer
2 reds for impulse engines (4 in the ent-B)
1 green nav light 1 red nav light (Blinking)
2 blues in the secondary hull (Nav Deflector & shuttlebay)

3 blues in each warp nacelle

I will also need the white navigational strobes
Ok some quick questions before I plow into making something up:

The Nav lights, need to blink, not the gently strobe effect?
The nav strobes, you want something like on for T off for 2T. T being some clock rate. Do you have a preference for this or just that T is adjustable.

If the nav lights blink and not gentle pulse what do you want, on for 2T off for 2T.

If they are some form of on off with a timing rate then I think we can make a circuit using some tricks to reduce parts count. and adjusting one clock rate adjusts them all in one shot.

The impulse engines don't exhibit any dimming FX.
The Warp nacelles don't exhibit any dimming FX.
All other LEDs appear to be always on.

Sparky,
The red and Green nav lights will blink on and off. The white strobes have a quicker cycle. you are also correct that the impulse, warp and all other LED's will always be on.